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DLFL
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Post by DLFL » Mon Mar 26, 2012 21:57

This is a image of 491 of HP of Q M and S. Are these amounts right?

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Post by ssorllih » Mon Mar 26, 2012 22:09

The same difference as boiling your potato in salted water and salting your mashed potato.
Yes the amounts are correct.
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Post by vagreys » Mon Mar 26, 2012 23:07

How is 7.8g of Cure #1 (98 ppm nitrite) the correct dry-cure amount for 5kg (11 lbs) skin-on bacon? On page 476, they explain that for dry-cure rind-on bacon, using USDA guidelines, the limit is 180 ppm, which would be 14.4g of US Cure #1, so I understand why DLFL would be confused by a recipe that is formulating a dry cure with 98 ppm sodium nitrite.

To be fair, DLFL, 180 ppm is the maximum allowed for rind-on bacon. You can use less. Minimally effective curing can be achieved at 40-50 ppm, but at that level the color fixing does not occur. Given that take-up of sodium nitrite from a dry cure is not 100% efficient, I would be using more than 98 ppm, myself.
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Post by DLFL » Tue Mar 27, 2012 00:23

Cw, this must be a mistake, as on page 36 it is written that the max in going rate of nitrite for dry cure is 625 ppm. (you told me to study 36-40) I have been advised to use the max amounts when ever the amounts I used were in question as to being safe. (IE: My cured ribs thread)

Then 11 lbs meat should then use 49.89 grams cure #1, if I am figuring this right.
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Mar 27, 2012 00:45

Dick, The amount of salt and cure #1 used seems to depend on the cure schedule that you use. One method drains the exudate constantly while another keeps the exudate in circulation until it is reabsorbed. I use the latter with a large strong plastic bag as a container. I turn the bag often as much as three times each day and make certain that all of the meat changes position within the bag. The former method packs the meat that has been coated with cure in a box that allows draining and rearranges the meat pieces at two or three day intervals with some of the reserved cure mixture applied each time.
I think that the draining method results in a drier product that will keep better. The method that I use demands that I have cold storage ability. The drier product has better keeping qualities.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 02:40

In all fairness to the author, I'll have Stan Marianski respond to this question.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by DLFL » Tue Mar 27, 2012 03:03

Thanks CW.
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Post by vagreys » Tue Mar 27, 2012 05:51

DLFL wrote:Cw, this must be a mistake, as on page 36 it is written that the max in going rate of nitrite for dry cure is 625 ppm. (you told me to study 36-40) I have been advised to use the max amounts when ever the amounts I used were in question as to being safe. (IE: My cured ribs thread)

Then 11 lbs meat should then use 49.89 grams cure #1, if I am figuring this right.
Keep in mind that bacon is a special case, and that the USDA established a set of guidelines for dry-cured bacon that are separate from other dry-cured meats. Specifically, no sodium nitrate is to be used in bacon, anymore, and the maximum in-going sodium nitrite for dry-cured rind-off bacon is 200 ppm, and for rind-on bacon is 180 ppm. The in-going amounts you see on page 36 are still considered appropriate for other dry-cured meats and sausages.

I look forward to hearing what Seminole has to say.
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Post by Seminole » Tue Mar 27, 2012 21:30

In this case you can increase the amount of cure#1 and still be OK.
The reason so little cure #1 was recommended is that about 50% of bacon is fat, and sodium nitrite will not react with fat as the latter does not contain myoglobin. As you know the combination of myoglobin and sodium nitrite gives us the pink color. This is also the reason why we cure pure fat (back fat) with salt only, there is no point of adding sodium nitrite (cure #1) to fat. The reasoning was that if you have only half of the meat, you need less cure #1.

The reason the government allows 625 ppm of sodium nitrite in dry products is that sodium nitrite dissipates very fast. The higher the temperature of smoking or cooking the faster the dissipation of sodium nitrite. Dry products usually contain plenty of lean meat (myoglobin) which absorbs sodium nitrite. By the time a dry ham or a dry sausage is done, let's say 3 months, there will be hardly any sodium nitrite left.

I have seen some recipes of traditionally made dry products that contain a lot of fat. Personally I question this wisdom, as the fat goes rancid in time, even if a product is kept in a freezer. Although it is still safe to consume, nevertheless it does not taste the same and will get worse in time. That is why the best Spanish and Italian dry hams are so lean. Some of them are prohibited from using nitrite by law, yet still end up in a nice red color, which is due to the long reactions between color and flavor forming bacteria, proteins, fats and all kind of enzymes.
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Mar 27, 2012 23:25

Thank you.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Mar 28, 2012 02:00

Munchos & Nachos Garcias Ameeger! :lol:
Stan for president in 2012! :mrgreen:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by ssorllih » Wed Mar 28, 2012 02:23

He is over qualified!
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Mar 28, 2012 02:31

That fella ought to write a book or something. :wink: :lol:
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Re: DLFL

Post by vagreys » Wed Mar 28, 2012 04:13

Seminole wrote:In this case you can increase the amount of cure#1 and still be OK.
The reason so little cure #1 was recommended is that about 50% of bacon is fat, and sodium nitrite will not react with fat as the latter does not contain myoglobin. As you know the combination of myoglobin and sodium nitrite gives us the pink color. This is also the reason why we cure pure fat (back fat) with salt only, there is no point of adding sodium nitrite (cure #1) to fat. The reasoning was that if you have only half of the meat, you need less cure #1...
So would it be fair to characterize your position as one of calculating your nitrate amount on an estimated/measured lean meat content of the product? So, you wouldn't calculate it on the green meat block (including fat), but just on the lean meat portion.
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Post by DLFL » Wed Mar 28, 2012 04:31

Stan,
Thank you for being so patient with a newbie to this way of preparing meat. I should of remembered that bacon fat did not need to be cured with nitrite. So much to learn and so little time.
Dick

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