St. Patrick's Day addictions

Talk about anything here as long as it is not against the rules.
Lorenzoid
User
User
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 18:09
Location: Atlanta

St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Lorenzoid » Sat Feb 27, 2021 18:27

I blame St. Patrick's Day for my addictions (no, not to the Jameson's and Guinness). For a number of years my tradition was to corn a brisket (as I know it is for many others). First, I used only the flat, as is apparently typical, and cooked it on St. Pat's Day in a pot with cabbage, potatoes and carrots. But there were hardly enough leftovers for sandwiches. Then I started doing the whole brisket, and enjoyed the extra meat and variety. My wife and I eventually admitted to ourselves that we enjoyed the sandwiches more than the traditional boil, so we ditched the boil entirely and went straight to sandwiches. We branched into Reubens and never went back to the plain deli-style corned beef sandwich. I need to improve my half-sour pickle, but that's another story. At least the sauerkraut for the Reuben is my own. Finding a source of proper deli-style rye bread in Atlanta has been a problem.

Last year, I decided I missed the Irish bit, and had the idea that rather than the corned beef boil I would make Irish breakfast--a "fry-up"--with black and white puddings, bacon, etc. (I don't have a smoker, so the bacon is store-bought.) The pudding experiment was a total fail. I suspected the black pudding might not work well because the blood was half-coagulated by the time I got it home, and I had to return to the store to buy several more containers like that to get the amount of liquid I was after. It apparently doesn't work like that. Maybe what was left in liquid state lacked the coagulant bit, as the black pudding never set up properly, and when sliced into the pan it just sort of melted and ran. The white pudding had a similar flaw, so I can't point entirely to the blood as the source of this problem. Learning to make at least a proper white pudding is on my to-do list. I believe black pudding will not happen unless I befriend an abbatoir.

This year I'm going to reluctantly rely on store-bought puddings (and bacon). Come March 17, there should be a nice fry-up with tomato, and maybe Heinz baked beans from the blue can, although I think beans may be more English than Irish. If I recall how a friend's mom made it for us in Ireland, it did not include beans. I doubt I can find that quality bacon, either.

As for the corned beef, I am a believer in the simple, traditional recipes. Brine is brine. A "handful" of pickling spice, as Rytek Kutas put it. That's all I have been doing. Pump 10 percent and refrigerate a few days. I did a quick search of corned beef threads here and didn't find anything that would help "up my game," but maybe I overlooked something. If there is any "secret" to achieving deli-style corned beef, it's probably in the cooking/reheating. Cooking in the oven seems to work well. I could sous vide, but I don't see the point.

What do YOU do for St. Patrick's Day?
User avatar
Bob K
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2232
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 15:16
Location: Northwest Ct

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Bob K » Sat Feb 27, 2021 19:13

Lorenzoid wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 18:27
Finding a source of proper deli-style rye bread in Atlanta has been a problem.
If you bake see page 15 of this thread. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6455&hilit=rye+bre ... 210#p21276 You CAN'T beat NY style Jewish rye for Rueben's or Corned beef sandwiches.
We also now go the Rueben or corned beef sandwich rout.
After boiling a corned beef you can try vac sealing and refrigerating, it then easier to slice. Warm up in a frying pan and melt the swiss on then for sandwiches.
Lorenzoid
User
User
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 18:09
Location: Atlanta

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Lorenzoid » Sat Feb 27, 2021 21:13

Bob K wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 19:13
Lorenzoid wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 18:27
Finding a source of proper deli-style rye bread in Atlanta has been a problem.
If you bake see page 15 of this thread. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6455&hilit=rye+bre ... 210#p21276 You CAN'T beat NY style Jewish rye for Rueben's or Corned beef sandwiches.
We also now go the Rueben or corned beef sandwich rout.
After boiling a corned beef you can try vac sealing and refrigerating, it then easier to slice. Warm up in a frying pan and melt the swiss on then for sandwiches.
So far I have successfully avoiding adding baking to my list of hobbies, but I suppose sourdough bread would fit right in with the sausagemaking, brewing, and fermenting of veggies. (Fermenting really is a rabbit hole, isn't it?) Maybe I can get my wife to give it a go.

I do usually slice the corned beef cold--and this year I have my newly refurbished Hobart slicer to help with that--then reheat the slices in the oven in a sealed foil pouch, basically letting them steam. For a Reueben, I put the meat on the bread with the Russian dressing, then pile on pre-warmed sauerkraut, then the cheese, and finish under the broiler for a few seconds. I have read that the NY delis' "secret" to tender, juicy corned beef is something along the lines of re-heating in a steam oven.
User avatar
Scogar
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 23:28
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Scogar » Sat Feb 27, 2021 21:48

Lorenzoid, I'm not sure it will kick your game up a notch or not but years ago when Ruhlman was the only source I was familiar with I came across a guy who arguably claimed to be working diligently toward perfection. Last Wednesday I carved up my brisket into the point and the flat and used his "cure" for both. The point was smaller so this is going to be the St Patty's corned beef and the heavier flat is destined to become pastrami. You can find the recipe I used here https://kosherdosher.blogspot.com/2020/ ... trami.html.

A couple of thoughts, I thought 2.2% salt PLUS cure was going to be too salty for me, so I dropped the white salt to 1.8%. My basis was that neither the corned beef nor the pastrami needed the higher level since nothing was meant to be dried like a salami. Strangely I had some grains of paradise for a wit beer I brewed for the wife a few years ago, but hadn't heard of using this in a corned beef. But after googling the flavor profile, it didn't sound bad, so I used it. And finally I have no desire to sous vide the meat for two or three days. I'm kinda drawing a line here, maybe not for a good reason, but I figure I can use my steamer and get a pretty good result having done so before.

So in about 18 days when it's St Patty's I'll let you know if his cure is worthy
Lorenzoid
User
User
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 18:09
Location: Atlanta

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Lorenzoid » Sun Feb 28, 2021 20:53

Thanks for the link to Kosher Dosher guy's blog. His recipe looks a little fussy, but let me know how it turns out. For sandwich purposes, I'd like to emulate NY deli style. This guy has the street cred, growing up in Brooklyn, etc., so he must know the flavor profile he's aiming for, but he strikes me as a tinkerer. He doesn't really explain how he came to devise that recipe. I am being a bit of a hypocrite here in that it annoys me when a blogger goes on forever about that before giving the recipe. The reason he gives for using a dry rub is to save space in his fridge, but I believe a brine is traditional. As for the spices, I can't imagine that NY deli corned beef uses grains of paradise, let alone juniper berries, cloves and allspice. When I try to conjure up my memories of NY deli corned beef, it just doesn't jibe with those spices. Based on my admittedly old memories of NY delis, I can't say I recall ANY spices in corned beef. Pastrami, sure, but not corned beef. By my reasoning--call it an application of Occam's Razor--the famous delis probably use the simplest method and most economical spice mix, which I am guessing is nothing more than what we call pickling spice.

I'm on the fence about sous vide corned beef. On one hand, texture is half the battle, and Kosher Dosher guy swears he has hit on the perfect time/temperature combination, even giving one for the flat and another for the point. On the other hand, people have been simmering what I suppose is deli-style corned beef for a hundred years. Is this guy just using sous vide because it's his latest cool toy? I have experimented with cooking various things sous vide and come to the conclusion that the only thing it's worth the effort for is achieving an evenly cooked steak.

Because I hadn't looked at Ruhlman's book in years, I just took a look at his corned beef recipe. I am pleasantly surprised that it is quite basic. In addition to pickling spice, the only thing he adds is garlic. I have never used garlic in corned beef. I wonder if it's part of the NY deli flavor profile or something he feels is an improvement? Maybe I will go crazy and add a little garlic this year.

Let us know how it turns out. Sometimes, tradition is not the ultimate arbiter of what is good.
User avatar
Scogar
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 23:28
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Scogar » Thu Mar 18, 2021 20:30

I made KosherDosher's corned beef as I mentioned above. I think Lorenzoid and a quote from Marianski are both apropos here.
Great Corned Beef but why all those perfumes?
It really is delicious, but with all the spices it was a bit perfumey and some of the tastes reminded me of Christmas...I'm hoping this makes some sense as trying to parse out this concept may be difficult. But here is a screen shot of his corned beef and pastrami spices:
Image
As I noted earlier I dropped the white salt to 1.8% and I also subbed brown sugar for muscovado but I think everything else was true to the recipe.

After the 18 or so day cure I rinsed the corned beef to get all the spices off it, dried it with a paper towel and then smeared the thinnest layer of coarse Dijon mustard as I could all over the corned beef. It was about 1800 grams which as I saw it was close to 4 lbs. I wrapped it tightly with aluminum foil and baked it in the oven at 350°F. One hour per pound...I thought this might be too much but thought of it as a BBQ brisket, low and slow. Man this was the best corned beef I ever had in my life. The meat near dissolved and there was collagen holding it together.
Image
A pic with homemade Irish soda bread, brussels sprouts with homemade bacon bits, and Irish buttered potatoes. Now when I say it was the best, it was the first time that (1) I didn't wet brine the beef but used an equilibrium cure and (2) it was the first time I baked a corned beef instead of braising it in either Guinness or water in a crock pot. I believe it was these two reasons to make it great and not necessarily KosherDosher's recipe. Don't get me wrong his recipe was very good and I'm not sure anyone would object to the smell of her perfume...even if they thought she had a bit too much. :D But I would back off the 2.2% salt as I didn't have to soak the salt out of the brisket to be edible.

ImageImage
Today's Reuben and a glass of homebrewed stout, even if it is in a Guinness glass. As for the corned beef I would use the same two processes again, i.e., EQ cure and baking but next time I may find a more "primitive" corned beef spice rub. God knows there's millions of references.
User avatar
Albertaed
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 23:22
Location: Peace River Alberta

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Albertaed » Thu Mar 18, 2021 20:39

Looks great! I finished off my corned beef before st pattys :lol:
User avatar
Scogar
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 23:28
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Scogar » Thu Mar 18, 2021 20:46

Thanks. It was tough starting this thing back in Feb, knowing it was cured a while ago but leaving it the full 18 days until St Pat's.

But a question for the gurus...using an equilibrium cure is there an upper limit on time? I mean can I leave "wet/raw" meat with salt and cure 1 in the refrigerator indefinitely? I realize that prosciutto is cured with salt and allowed to age in air a year or longer, but it would seem that at some point the meat would go bad in my EQ cure. AS for how long that is, it may be well past what a reasonable man would allow. I have no reason to push this as the 18 day wait was becoming boring. I simply am trying to better understand the control we get with salt and cure. It is an impressive feat of nature.
User avatar
jcflorida
User
User
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 21:14
Location: Orlando

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by jcflorida » Fri Mar 19, 2021 00:22

Bob K wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 19:13
If you bake see page 15 of this thread. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6455&hilit=rye+bre ... 210#p21276 You CAN'T beat NY style Jewish rye for Rueben's or Corned beef sandwiches.
Thanks for the link Bob, I've made your recipe twice now and its the best rye recipe I've tried. I had some difficulty finding the first clear flour, but finally got a 3 pound bag from King Arthur. It won't last long, but the Baker's Authority also sells it in larger quantities. Anyway, here's a couple of pics, and thanks again.

PS, I'll be making pastrami sometime next week following the method that I've learned to like and that is a bit different from most. Will take some pictures and post whenever it happens.

Image

Image
fatboyz
Forum Enthusiast
Forum Enthusiast
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 19:26
Location: Alberta

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by fatboyz » Fri Mar 19, 2021 01:34

Beautiful looking bread!
User avatar
Bob K
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2232
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 15:16
Location: Northwest Ct

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Bob K » Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:39

Nice JC! You can use a OO high gluten flour (pizza flour) instead of the clear, the first clear was used back in the day. The caraway seeds can also be ground fine, the same flavor and aroma without the seeds that some folks object...
User avatar
Bob K
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2232
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 15:16
Location: Northwest Ct

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Bob K » Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:54

Scogar wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 20:46
..using an equilibrium cure is there an upper limit on time? I mean can I leave "wet/raw" meat with salt and cure 1 in the refrigerator indefinitely?
If you look at cured, uncooked meats that are sold in stores the best by dates are around two months. Meats like prosciutto have also been dried so the low aW makes them shelf stable.
I leave Sweetheart hams in an EQ cure for around 4-5 weeks. I think that the flavor from the spices take longer than a few weeks to fully penetrate a loin.

Pastrami looks real good. I am going to try that method with the addition of a 2-3 hour low temp smoke prior to baking.
User avatar
jcflorida
User
User
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 21:14
Location: Orlando

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by jcflorida » Fri Mar 19, 2021 15:23

Bob K wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:39
You can use a OO high gluten flour (
Thanks for the tip Bob, we're going to try using regular bread flour with enough wheat gluten added to bring the protein content up to the 15.3% King Arthur claims for their first clear to see what happens.
Bob K wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:39
caraway seeds can also be ground fine, the same flavor and aroma without the seeds that some folks object...
Love caraway seeds in rye bread, we already added 5 grams ground caraway to the tablespoon (~10grams) of seeds based on your "to taste" recommendation.
User avatar
Albertaed
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 23:22
Location: Peace River Alberta

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Albertaed » Fri Mar 19, 2021 15:38

My wife makes the very same bread. Love the caraway seeds as well
User avatar
Scogar
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 23:28
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: St. Patrick's Day addictions

Post by Scogar » Sat Mar 20, 2021 00:59

Bob K wrote
If you look at cured, uncooked meats that are sold in stores the best by dates are around two months
thanks that's a great way to consider this. Very unlikely that I'll see too many things go this long.
Post Reply