Online Workshop: Project B (August 2012)

Gulyás · Post by **Gulyás** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:41

Thank you Mr. C.W.
It's very informative.

grasshopper · Post by **grasshopper** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 19:15

Many thanks CW, that was a great read. Trying To stay on the top side of the grass and still enjoying good sausage. Got out my highlight pen as I bet there will be another test coming. This information has to be permanently in our head. Keep it coming and thanks for the hot dog recipe.

grasshopper · Post by **grasshopper** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 03:57

CW said no question is to dumb. On the hot dog recipe you gave JBK's. Would carnations non fat milk be ok instead of soy protein concentrate. It is more readily available.

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 04:54

Hi Grasshopper!
That's a great question and one that's been asked before by many folks. Here is a link with a discussion about the stuff. You'll have to scroll down a bit to find it but it gets into the nitty gritty about non-fat dry milk and soy protein. I believe this will answer your question. If not, rattle my chain some more will you and we can discuss it further. Click here: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
Did you shoot a goose yet?

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Cabonaia · Post by **Cabonaia** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 07:40

Thanks CW for this very interesting and informative read. My takeaway re. my question is that we can leave our kabanosy on the kitchen counter for 4 or 5 days to dry and bloom because that is not long enough to exhaust the nitrite we have put into it. I would also assume that during that time, since drying is occuring and acidity is increasing (thanks to development of lactic acid). 2 more barriers to spoilage are at work. Am I getting it right?

Jeff

crustyo44 · Post by **crustyo44** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 09:19

Grasshopper,
I asked the same question many moons ago and a very experienced forum member n.l. BigGuy, advised me that he used non fat milkpowder with no noticeable difference in taste.
Here in Australia we call it skim milk powder.
I tried it in meatballs, sausages etc etc and Big Guy is RIGHT.
The skim milk powder I buy at a chainstore rather cheaply. Watch the amount you use though.
Regards,
Jan.

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:00

Jeff, you are very welcome my friend. You are almost right.

Actually, sodium nitrite is so quick, it cures meat in a matter of only hours. The initial protection in this type of sausage comes from the salt content. This is why we must never alter the salt in a recipe. As salt "binds" water, bacteria stop multiplying because there is no more "available" water to keep them alive. As the sausage dries and drops below 0.86 on the scale, it is safe to consume as far as bacteria are concerned. However, to protect the sausage from non-bacterial microorganisms such as trichinella spiralis and cryptosporidium with no less than 24 species, we must cook the sausage, use "certified" pork, or employ any other means of control such as irradiation etc. As far as acidity increasing in our kabanosy, very little fermentation will occur as it does not have powdered dextrose and an added culture to make a large amount of lactic acid. But then, kabanosy was not designed to be a tangy sausage.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:06

Hi Northfork,
We were just starting to worry about you pal. I`m glad you checked in. You wrote:

#1 Is there a simple method of determining/measuring the actual Aw level in a product or does this require sophisticated equipment?

A few years back, a company in your neck of the woods (Decagon Devices Inc. in Pullman, Washingon), developed a knockout little water activity instrument that they call the "Pawkit". (a little play on words aw/kit that goes in your pocket [pawkit]). Government inspectors use them by flipping back the cover and placing it atop a standard sample cup. A reading is taken in just a few minutes. It`s easy, relatively quick, very accurate, and very expensive. We meadow-muffin kickers have to rely on a much more simple method - weighing the initial "green weight" of the product, and weighing it at intervals, waiting for the magic "yield" of 70%. In other words, when the product has lost 30% of its weight in moisture, it is safe to assume the level has dropped to below 0.86 Aw.
You also wrote:

#2 Do other additives (such as milk powder or soy concentrate), that tend to hold or bind water in the product also reduce Aw as does salt?

Soy protein and milk powder will certainly hold water (4 parts) but will not "bind" it, keeping it isolated from bacteria. They indeed "bind" meat in another respect, as they hold the particles together. However as a isolating medium to keep water from bacteria, salt is unique.
You wrote:

... and am either missing something or the answers are not as simple as it might seem.

Pat, I could present an overly-complicated (and boring) microbiological presentation on the effects of isolating properties of sodium chloride against pathogenic bacteria, but in all honesty, it would be out of place on a sausage-making forum. As sausage makers, we just don`t require a more finite understanding of the principles of water activity. For our needs, a more simple explanation should suffice.

I have a certain detractor who registered as a member of this forum on April 5th of this year. Since then, he has taken it upon himself to scrutinize and question every little issue with everything I post. Quite frankly, he has caused me to lose valuable time qualifying my posts, when I could be helping others with issues such as the one you brought up here. Pat, ol` bud, you aren`t "missing anything". And yes, I may have over-simplified my explanation of water activity in order to make it easier for some to grasp. I apologize for my simplified explanation, but I am just not about to explain the technical process to some heckler who would just love to take the ol` Chuckwagon down a notch. So please Pat, know that I am here to help you understand the process, but because of my detractor, I am not about to teach microbiology online. You are doing fine Northfork, and I`m most happy to know that you`ve finished the sausages up to this point. I can hardly wait to see your kabanosy photos and notes.

Pat, our fellow member and author Stan Marianski has provided some very good material with charts to help us understand Aw and pH.
Take a look at the following link and read Stan`s explanation. Then read these next four sentences and I think they will make sense to you. Here is the link: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-ty ... ed-sausage
Salt does not destroy bacteria. It doesn`t even force water to evaporate. It does, however, immediately immobilize or bind a specific, large amount of free water, preventing it from interacting with bacteria (or anything else). The measurement of "bound" water (not available to bacteria) is called "water activity", and is abbreviated Aw.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

NorthFork · Post by **NorthFork** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:27

Thanks Chuckwagon, your explanation and method of determining a safe Aw level(and how to achieve it safely) is exactly what I was hoping for. As far as technical goes-I really don't want to go there and if I did I would enroll at WAZZU and spend my retirement years learning a whole bunch of stuff that I wouldn't live long enough to use. I learned a long time ago that if you know and understand "What, When and How" you can accomplish almost anything and take your time learning the all important "Why" part of the equation-or better yet rely on those (such as yourself) who have devoted themselves to obtaining this knowledge and are willing to share.

Thanks again for your help-I'll study the info in the link you posted.
Pat

Gulyás · Post by **Gulyás** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:13

Thank you Mr. Chuckwagon, YOU ARE THE BEST.

grasshopper · Post by **grasshopper** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 17:23

Thanks CW, Looks like butcher & packer here I come and get the real stuff. Soy protein concentrate.

ssorllih · Post by **ssorllih** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 18:56

It grieves me to hear young people talk about being concerned about acquiring education that they might not live long enough to use. most people have finished their university studies before they are thirty and and retire by the time they are 65. They will likely live for another 20 years and quite posibly 30. That is plenty of time to acheive all manner of interesting projects.

Cabonaia · Post by **Cabonaia** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 21:31

Chuckwagon wrote:Jeff, you are very welcome my friend. You are almost right.
Actually, sodium nitrite is so quick, it cures meat in a matter of only hours. The initial protection in this type of sausage comes from the salt content. This is why we must never alter the salt in a recipe. As salt "binds" water, bacteria stop multiplying because there is no more "available" water to keep them alive. As the sausage dries and drops below 0.86 on the scale, it is safe to consume as far as bacteria are concerned. However, to protect the sausage from non-bacterial microorganisms such as trichinella spiralis and cryptosporidium with no less than 24 species, we must cook the sausage, use "certified" pork, or employ any other means of control such as irradiation etc. As far as acidity increasing in our kabanosy, very little fermentation will occur as it does not have powdered dextrose and an added culture to make a large amount of lactic acid. But then, kabanosy was not designed to be a tangy sausage.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Professor Wagon - This is a really clear explanation that I can remember. I thank you! When you have always been particular to ensure food is properly stored/refrigerator, it is a little unsettling to let something just sit on the counter for a few days, even if you have followed instructions. So understanding the "why" at a basic level is important to me.

Jeff

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 03:02

Hi Jeff, You wrote:

it is a little unsettling to let something just sit on the counter for a few days, even if you have followed instructions. So understanding the "why" at a basic level is important to me.

As well it should be pal! After studying what these microbes do to the human body, I am probably more fearful than you are about foodborne illness. If not for my "detractor" (a fellow member on this site), I would probably go into much more detail for folks like you who appreciate it. However, at the current time, if I did, I would only be opening myself up to more criticism. But... that's the way it is ol' friend... one of those people in every crowd... who just love to tear down what someone else worked very hard to build up. It's the green-eyed monster!

I just refuse to let an "odor" like that ruin my day.

Ol' pard, I'll be most happy to write up a full explanation of my notes and papers on Aw and pH and send them to you and anyone else interested. I just won't post them to have someone like him find fault with them and ridicule me online.

I truly thank you for the trust you've placed in me and for the nice remarks. I very much enjoy the participants on this project and regard all as sausagemaking brothers involved in the same craft, working for the same end. But more than that, you've all become pretty danged good friends!

My best wishes and respect for all of you,
Chuckwagon

ssorllih · Post by **ssorllih** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 03:51

I believe that I read somewhere that fermented sausage making, beer brewing and cheese making was just applied microbiology. What is not to like? I would be pleased to hold a detailed copy of your work on the microbiology of sausage making.
At this stage I am reluctant to endeavor this because I haven't taken the necessary time to study the details and to determine if I can achieve the conditions required. Perhaps this winter.