Online Workshop: Project B (August 2012)

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Cabonaia
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Post by Cabonaia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 05:16

Chuckwagon wrote: I'll be most happy to write up a full explanation of my notes and papers on Aw and pH and send them to you and anyone else interested. I just won't post them to have some horse's ass like him find fault with them and ridicule me online.
Taking you up on that CW! How could I refuse? When you've got some time, I would love to read up and do my best to understand. You do a great job explaining meat science to guys like me who are not scientists but here to learn.

I guess all you have to do is click my email button, huh?
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Post by NorthFork » Mon Sep 17, 2012 13:08

Cabonaia wrote:
Chuckwagon wrote: I'll be most happy to write up a full explanation of my notes and papers on Aw and pH and send them to you and anyone else interested. I just won't post them to have some horse's ass like him find fault with them and ridicule me online.
Taking you up on that CW! How could I refuse? When you've got some time, I would love to read up and do my best to understand. You do a great job explaining meat science to guys like me who are not scientists but here to learn.

I guess all you have to do is click my email button, huh?
Chuckwagon, if/when you get the notes put together I would really appreciate a copy as well-email is in my profile-Thank You

I have another question after digesting the info on the Aw subject. I see quite a few recipes for snack sticks and other similar sausages that include milk powder or soy protein in the recipe. It doesn't appear that the salt value is increased as a percentage of meat weight (the recipes still use Cure #1) so the salt ratio is actually reduced by the addition of these products.
Question:
Since "Milk Powder" and "Soy Protein and/or Isolate" hold water rather than binding the water (although I see in many places they are misrepresented as "binding" water) do they raise the risk of bacterial contamination in a product that is not immediately refrigerated since they are holding water that I presume is still available to bacteria and at a lower % of salt?

Thank you
Pat
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Post by grasshopper » Mon Sep 17, 2012 15:33

CW I will take a copy also. Thank you for making the PH simple for me. If it has lost 30% of its original weight the Ph should be under .086. in most cases. Thank you for your explanations and keeping it simple to understand. Too technical and I will probably get lost and change hobbies. I am just in my kitchen having fun and learning. A PHD is not required associates degree would be nice. (ha)
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Post by HamnCheese » Mon Sep 17, 2012 17:41

Hey Chuckwagon!

I'd like a copy as well. Found the time to make breakfast and Italian sausage this past weekend. (No pics - sausage worked far better than the camera.) Will try to catch up as time allows....things are hectic right now.

To the sausage makers.....it looks like you're all doing amazing work! Kudos!!!

Lynn
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Sep 17, 2012 20:11

Hi NorthFork,
You wrote:
Since "Milk Powder" and "Soy Protein and/or Isolate" hold water rather than binding the water (although I see in many places they are misrepresented as "binding" water) do they raise the risk of bacterial contamination in a product that is not immediately refrigerated since they are holding water that I presume is still available to bacteria and at a lower % of salt?
This is exactly why semi-dry cured sausage must be refrigerated after it dries. Many people think that because it has dried, it is completely safe. Only fully-dry-cured sausage may be kept safe outside the refrigerator. Most people don`t consider the very real possibility of "post contamination" whereas bacteria may actually re-infect the product from an outside source - even the air! So, to be safe... after your semi-dry-cured product has dropped below 0.86 Aw, put it in a paper sack for storage in your fridge. This will delay mold a little.

Cabonaia, thanks for the kind words. I'll be sending you the notes & papers as soon as I get settled in my new place on this ol' mountain. Need a little time to relocate.

Grasshopper, thanks for your great PM. I`m sending you a note with a photo taken in your great state. I think you`ll be surprised.

ssorllih, thanks for your PM and support. See my answer (PM)

Hamn`cheese... girl it`s nice to have you back. Hope you had a great sail. Catch up on your reading when you can and stay in touch. Your input is very important to us. Hey, when you are out there with your boat, always be on the lookout for Ross Hill (ssorllih). I happen to know that he jibes and tacks completely out of control! Why... he once ran over Uwanna in his kayak and didn`t even toss him a sausage! If you see Ross coming, just head on over to the Great Salt Lake and I`ll make a tuna-fish sandwich for ya!

Best Wishes PB associates. You folks are the best!
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by NorthFork » Tue Sep 18, 2012 13:18

I think my Kabanosy has dried (bloomed) sufficiently and since I started with a very small batch (600g) and have been "testing" it since it came out of the smoker the remainder won't last long. I make a lot of snack sticks and jerky and this recipe will definitely be included in future batches. I have an aversion to Caraway (my mothers favorite ingredient in many recipes when I was a child-kind of burned me out on caraway!) but I enjoyed it's flavor in this product.

This is my first attempt at posting photos-hope it works--
First, my project notes:Notes
Day#1 -I mixed and seasoned the sausages per instructions (22mm Collagen casings). I refrigerated them overnight (about 16 hrs total) and allowed them about an hour at room temperature prior to smoking.

Day #2-Smoking: Preheated the smoker to 106° F and placed the sausage (not cut or linked) on smoking screens and placed in smoker with medium to heavy smoke (mix of Cherry sawdust, cherry wood and cherry/hickory pellets). Smoked at this temp for 1 hr raising I.M.T. to 85° F. Raised smoker temp to 150° and smoked for another 45 min. raising I.M.T. to 130°. I then raised the smoker temp. to 180° and it took another 15 to min to reach 155° I.M.T., I allowed the product to cool in the smoker until temp was down around 100° and brought them in and covered with paper towels and placed on kitchen counter to dry further and "bloom".

Day #3&4- Bloom:Allowed Kabanosy to "Bloom" for 3 days (incl. the smoking day) in cupboard at approx. 70 to 74° F and around 40 to 50% RH. I was unable to record weight change as I failed to weigh the product before smoking and also was unable to avoid sampling throughout the drying period.

Observation: This is a very good snack stick and one that I will make again, I have always had a tendency to avoid caraway but found it a pleasant addition to the flavor of this sausage.

In the Smoker
Image

Day 1 Blooming
Image

Day 4
Image

What is left with a cut and Break-
Image

Thanks CW and all for putting this project together-it is a great resource-
NorthFork
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Post by IdaKraut » Tue Sep 18, 2012 16:11

Here's a question that I don't think has been asked: When making dry or semi-dry cured sausage without the aid of an aW meter, and you have added water to the recipe to help facilitate stuffing small diameter casings, does one subtract the weight of the water when determining target weight?

For example, if I added 10% water (by weight) to my sausage recipe and the stuffed sausage weighs 200 grams before going into the smoker, do I subtract 20 grams, thus making the unsmoked weight 180 grams?

I would assume you would subtract the added water weight, but would like to hear from others. This will help in determining the dried target weight. Thanks.
Rudy
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Sep 18, 2012 17:02

The recipe calls for a 45% weight loss here with the added water. http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/kabanosy
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 17:25

Northfork, you just went to the head of the class. Your notes are terrific and your photos are great! Best of all, you have made a snack stick that you will probably make the rest of your life. The texture looks good and so does the bloom. Congrats pal. Shucks, all you folks have made a marvelous product. As the dude leadin` this project, I couldn`t be more pleased. It is so rewarding seeing all your photos and notes. This makes a very successful project. Thanks guys.

Idakraut, to answer your question about weight loss. Include the added water in the "green weight". That amount of water will evaporate so quickly, you`ll be amazed. You won`t really have to measure the weight loss because you`ll know when it`s done, believe me! By the third day, it will have lost most of its moisture and will have started to take on that beautiful mahogany color. The fourth day is magic and you have probably turned it over by then a couple of times. If you still have any left over after "sampling" the batch, I`ve always found that the stuff is best after a week`s time.

One more thought here. Do you realize what you`d be paying at your local Mini-Mart gas station for this kind of sausage? Wow... you get a scant 4 inches for a big chunk of change! You`ve just made a very valuable product at home - a better one than you can buy. And it only gets better as you make each new batch.

Well folks, we`ll be moving on to our next project pretty soon. I`ll post a little self-check quiz tonight and you can see how you stand. I`m willing to bet that you`ll make kabanosy over and over again. At my house, it`s more popular than jerky.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by IdaKraut » Tue Sep 18, 2012 18:02

ssorllih wrote:The recipe calls for a 45% weight loss here with the added water. http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/kabanosy
Ross,

Oops, I missed that. You are right. Thanks,
Rudy
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Post by grasshopper » Tue Sep 18, 2012 21:24

Question Is the stuff at the mini mart cured with #2 because it sits there a long time. I have never seen any mold on the outside. My wife loves the cactus jack, She says you can even taste the meat. I did not crack the caraway or toast it, next time I will.
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Sep 18, 2012 21:50

Just read the label carefully. Everything that goes into the sausage must be listed on the label. You can even determine how much salt they used by the amount of sodium listed for a single serving. Table salt has 394 mg sodium per gram.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 22:00

In October 2003, in New Mexico, there was an outbreak of Salmonella that was traced to jerky production in one of the small plants. In response to this outbreak, the Food Safety and Inspection Service initiated a series of policy changes and guidelines. What the FSIS concluded is that it is not enough to follow the time-temperature guidelines, but must now also include the humidity factor in the cooking process. It is now necessary to maintain the relative humidity of the oven at 90% or above for at least 25% of the cooking time and no less than one hour. This ruling has started a heated and ongoing debate between the FSIS and small jerky and "restructured meat" manufacturers who claim that maintaining such high humidity in a smokehouse is difficult and may force them out of business. Another argument is that the humidity requirement changes the quality of the product. Due to today`s microbiological concerns, particularly E.coli 0157:H7, Salmonella, and Listeria monocytogenes, commercially made jerky and restructured meat products must now be exposed to thermal processing. A hobbyist is not bound by those rules but we believe it is beneficial to know about the latest safety requirements for making these products.

To see my entire article about the new regulations (with charts), click on this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5789

Grasshopper, you asked:
Is the stuff at the mini mart cured with #2 because it sits there a long time. I have never seen any mold on the outside.
No, a sausage that is cooked and cured (smoked or not) is cured with Cure #1. With only very few exceptions, Cure#2 is used only for raw meat, fermented, air-dried (dry-cured) sausage such as salami. The stuff in the service station is generally packaged in air-tight plastic that greatly slows down oxidation. If left in the open air, many spray the stuff with mold inhibitors and other substances such as ascorbic acid or chemicals we don`t even consider using as home hobbyists.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by el Ducko » Tue Sep 18, 2012 22:13

Good info, CW. I jumped to your referenced writeup. ...real eye-opener.

I just went out and plunked down some more cash on the hobby- - a new smoker. Now, looks like I need to read up on combined temperature + humidity control.

...which is a good thing, seeing as how the health of friends and family is at stake. Keep up the good work! This Project B business has led to a whole new level of awareness. As mah ol' buddy, Elvis, always said, "Thank yew vurrah much." :mrgreen:
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
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Post by grasshopper » Wed Sep 19, 2012 00:45

Thanks! One of my boys, wife bought him a dehydrator for his game meat. Back to that dam goose breast for jerky. Thanks for the link CW. I printed in out and will make sure he gets it. If he poison himself, I won't get a Christmas present. This class is a great education.

CW quote
Yup pards, many folks will continue making jerky without precooking meat, the way they have always done it. Whether you follow them or make jerky in accordance with the USDA regulations is up to you. Again, I'm certainly no expert, but I do strongly believe that safety is the most important step of any meat processing operation.
Last edited by grasshopper on Wed Sep 19, 2012 05:59, edited 1 time in total.
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