When is it safe not to use nitrite/nitrate?

Post Reply
sambal badjak
Frequent User
Frequent User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:41
Location: In the hot Zambezi Valley
Contact:

When is it safe not to use nitrite/nitrate?

Post by sambal badjak » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:29

I know this has been asked a couple of times, bu it is still confusing me somewhat.
There seem to be a number of conflicting opinions about:

Anyway, the main reason for asking is that I struggle to get a cure/curing sal/tnitrate/nitrite etc (see other post of today as well).

Am I correct in the following:
1 -If you make a sausage that is going to be cooked/fried till done (about 70-75oC internal temperature) you do not need to add a cure (although you can). Basically similar to making a burger or a meatball.

2 - If you do the same and you instead of frying you cold smoke it (around about 30 oC) you do need a cure (either nitrite or a nitrite/nitrate mixture depending on the duration)

3 - If you hot smoke till the right internal temperature you don't need a cure? It would basically be the same as option 1?

4 - What if you boil the sausage to the right internal temperature and smoke afterwards (either hot or cold)? Surely all bacteria etc are killed by the boiling process and this should be safe?

Any help will be much appreciated as I obviously want to stay safe, but I also want to make different products.
life is too short to drink bad wine (anonymus)
ssorllih
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4331
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 19:32
Location: maryland

Post by ssorllih » Fri Jul 26, 2013 13:57

Answers:
Question#1 yes
Questions 2,3, and 4 no! If it can't be cured it must not be smoked. Chuckwagon has written several very detailed posts concerning this need.



Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 01:18 Sausage Safety - Curing & Cooking


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rytek Kutas said the first rule of sausage making is, "If it can't be cured... it can't be smoked!" Casing the sausage cuts off oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria do not require oxygen and certain pathogenic bacteria in sausage being smoked certainly present a risk. Meat covered with plastic wrap for "overnight curing" inside a refrigerator presents a risk as well. Most bacteria thrive in the "danger zone" between 40° F. 4° C.) and 140° F. (60° C.). However, two foodborne bacteria, listeria monocytogenes and yersinia enterocolitica can actually grow at refrigerator temperatures!

Smoke also cuts off oxygen. True, the cooking will destroy trichinella spiralis - the parasitic roundworm whose larval form may be present in the flesh of pork or wild game - whose painful infection is known as trichinosis. Cooking will also destroy staphylococcus aureus, salmonella, campylobacter jejuni, shigella, bacillus cereus and other bad bugs, BUT... botulinum spores are another story! They are extremely persistent and will survive heating up to 250°F. (121°C), freezing, smoking, and drying.

An obligate anaerobe cannot grow in the presence of oxygen. Without oxygen, the addition of sodium nitrates or sodium nitrites is necessary to prevent botulism poisoning. It also becomes crucial that meat be removed from the "danger zone" temperature range as quickly as possible during any preparation or cooking process. This includes grinding, mixing, and stuffing sausages, procedures often supported using ice, ice water, or refrigeration and freezing. As bacteria need moisture to multiply and meat is about three-quarters water, it becomes an ideal environment for the growth of bacteria, even when it is mostly dried.

Clostridium Botulinum is a common obligate anaerobic bacterium microorganism found in soil and sea sediments. Although it can only reproduce in an oxygen-free environment, when it does reproduce, it produces the deadliest poison known to man - botulinum toxin. One millionth of a gram ingested means certain death - about 500,000 times more toxic than cyanide. Onset of symptoms can occur quickly and include nausea, stomach pain, double vision, and spreading paralysis, ultimately reaching the heart or respiratory organs. If treatment is given and the dose is low, half of those affected may survive, but recovery may take months or years. Although fatalities occur yearly, especially in countries where home canning is popular, the risk of acquiring botulism is very, very low. However, the lethal consequences of poisoning may make you wish to reconsider the proper addition of sodium nitrate/nitrite in your products to almost eliminate the risk. Worldwide, there are about 1000 cases of botulism each year.

The rod-shaped bacterium was first recognized and isolated in 1896 following the poisoning of several people who had consumed bad ham. It was later discovered that due to the enzyme superoxide dismutase, the bacterium might actually tolerate very small traces of oxygen. Once again, botulinum spores are extremely persistent and will survive heating up to 250°F. (121°C), freezing, smoking, and drying. Insidiously, they lie in wait for the right conditions to occur and give no foul smell or taste, making it even more treacherous. In non-cooked fermented sausages, the microorganism must be destroyed using a combination of salt, a drop beyond 5.0 pH, and a minimum drop in Aw water activity to 0.97 or less.

Additionally, placing fresh vegetables or un-sterilized (garden fresh) spices into sausage is not recommended as botulinum spores are not uncommon on leafy herbs, peppers, beans, chilies, and corn. Cut off from oxygen by being stuffed into casings and placed in a smoker, the smoking temperatures are ideal for botulinal bacteria growth. The risk using fresh garlic is less, but cases of botulism poisoning have been reported after people have eaten home-canned garlic cloves in oil - the ideal environment for anaerobic bacterial growth!

Be safe sausage grinders! And...
Best wishes, Chuckwagon
Last edited by ssorllih on Sat Jul 27, 2013 07:04, edited 1 time in total.
Ross- tightwad home cook
sambal badjak
Frequent User
Frequent User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:41
Location: In the hot Zambezi Valley
Contact:

Post by sambal badjak » Fri Jul 26, 2013 17:05

Thanks Ross, I have read up on the subject, but there are a lot of differing opinions out there:
Your answer is definitely helping me. Very enlightening :smile:
So the actual casings are a bit of an issue. I didn't think about that.
Now if I would make patties instead of sausages: would option 3 & 4 be safe?

I am trying hard to find sodium nitrite .........
life is too short to drink bad wine (anonymus)
User avatar
Dave Zac
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:39
Location: Bristol, NY

Post by Dave Zac » Sat Jul 27, 2013 13:37

sorllih wrote:Questions 2,3, and 4 no! If it can't be cured it must not be smoked. Chuckwagon has written several very detailed posts concerning this need.


I must respectfully disagree with the answer provided for question 2. The question was
if you cold smoke it...you do need a cure
and that is absolutely yes and without question. Lets not confuse this fella any more than he is.
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Sun Jul 28, 2013 03:32

Dave, where have you been? We've sent out scouts looking for you! Two of them came back snake-bit, sunburned, without their horses, hungry, and full of arrows!

Hey pal, thanks for catching that. I'm sure Ross just mis-read the sentence. He probably just saw the "do" and took it as a "do not".
Oh, and yes... Sambal Badjak is a female, not a "fella". Ooops, That's okay, I did the same thing the other day with another member. :oops: We've just got to start remembering that about seven or eight percent of our members are good lookin' and intelligent women!
Okay, allow me to throw in my 2 cents. Anytime a casing is used, it keeps air from reaching the sausage. This of course invites any obligate anaerobic bacteria to multiply in the presence of oxygen. Without oxygen, the addition of sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite is necessary to prevent botulism poisoning.
Sambal Badjak wrote:
What if you boil the sausage to the right internal temperature and smoke afterwards (either hot or cold)? Surely all bacteria etc are killed by the boiling process and this should be safe?
Same problem. If the sausages are encased, new bacteria can develop and become a threat without the use of sodium nitrite. Please be aware that not all bacteria are destroyed by boiling.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Last edited by Chuckwagon on Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:45, edited 1 time in total.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
sambal badjak
Frequent User
Frequent User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:41
Location: In the hot Zambezi Valley
Contact:

Post by sambal badjak » Sun Jul 28, 2013 05:47

Thanks guys,
It is getting clearer and clearer!
For now, I will stick with fresh sausages, fry them or grill them, but not smoke them.
For smoking I will use not-encased meat and smoke at high temperature. I read somewhere that that should be called "cooking with smoke"?
The good news is that it looks I might have located some sodium nitrite (you notice how carefully I:-)am stating this?).
Again thanks all for helping me get my mind around the differences and taking the time to help out beginners!
life is too short to drink bad wine (anonymus)
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Sun Jul 28, 2013 06:07

You are most welcome Sambal Badjak. Just keep in touch with us and let us know how you are doing with your projects. We are here to help you. I hope you find some sodium nitrite cure. Don't give up. It may be tough to locate, but we can always have El DuckO FLY you some down to Zambia. He's always flappin' his wings about something. :mrgreen: All we have to do is put a little hot air beneath him... and I know several members who can easily do that! :lol:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
User avatar
el Ducko
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 04:59
Location: Texas Hill Country
Contact:

Post by el Ducko » Mon Jul 29, 2013 17:12

Chuckwagon wrote:You are most welcome Sambal Badjak. Just keep in touch with us and let us know how you are doing with your projects. We are here to help you. I hope you find some sodium nitrite cure. Don't give up. It may be tough to locate, but we can always have El DuckO FLY you some down to Zambia. He's always flappin' his wings about something. :mrgreen: All we have to do is put a little hot air beneath him... and I know several members who can easily do that! :lol:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Donations accepted.

But seriously, folks, could a couple of small containers of #1 and #2 cure be sent there as "gifts"? (...thereby avoiding taxes, etc.) It'll at least get him started.
:mrgreen:
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
ssorllih
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4331
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 19:32
Location: maryland

Post by ssorllih » Mon Jul 29, 2013 17:18

When used directly as an ingredient and not as part of a brine a few ounces will go a long way. Vacuum packaging would be practical and would fit a large mailing envelope.
Ross- tightwad home cook
sambal badjak
Frequent User
Frequent User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:41
Location: In the hot Zambezi Valley
Contact:

Post by sambal badjak » Tue Jul 30, 2013 07:55

Thanks guys,
That's a fantastic offer.
I will know later this week if I can get some nitrite salt. I will keep you posted!
Keeping my fingers crossed !!!
life is too short to drink bad wine (anonymus)
sambal badjak
Frequent User
Frequent User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:41
Location: In the hot Zambezi Valley
Contact:

Post by sambal badjak » Thu Aug 01, 2013 16:03

Yippee
I found nitrite salt. It goes under the name of quick red cure.
The recomended dose is 2 g/kg, resulting in 160 ppm.
Easy calculations tell me that it is an 8% formulation (ain't I clever)?
Anyway, this seems just a bit on the high side. I read in one of Marianski's book that EU and US regulations are a maximum of 156 ppm and that although there is no minimum level, 120 ppm is supposed to be the minimum if you can't control pH, temp etc 100%.
I am planning to go and sit just somewhere between 120 and 130 ppm.
I got a busy weekend coming up (I run a lodge) but after that .........
life is too short to drink bad wine (anonymus)
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Thu Aug 01, 2013 19:17

Glad to hear it Sambal! Now there's nothing stopping you! Good luck.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
Post Reply