Hungarian style salami with T-SPX?

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markizschnitzel
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Hungarian style salami with T-SPX?

Post by markizschnitzel » Thu Nov 08, 2018 19:44

I've bene making sausages in hungarian style some time now.

This is the basic recipe:
- 16-2% salt
- ~1% paprika, mix of hot and sweet (by taste)
- garlic slurry (by taste)
...

That's it.

I would like to try and make a variation with a T-SPX culture.

Beacuse of time constraint, I had to arrange a fresh homegrown hog 10 days from now. Not enough time for me to get everything to make a small fermenting chamber with humidistat and thermostat.

So I have a few questions:
1) can I put sausages into a vacum bag to ferment and leave them in my home where we heat to ~22C?
2) fermentation stops at <12C AFAICT. After fermentation, sausages go into a smokehouse/drying chamber where the ambient temp will be between 5-10C. Since I don't have a PH meter as well, but I can (?) stop the fermentation by taking them outside, can I reliably know that PH will not drop below 5, ideally 5.3? Looking at Hansen meat manual 1, 0.3% glucose at 24C for 72h should be it.
3) Can I substitute glucose for table sugar? Would that completely ruin the initial fermentation, or would I just need to keep it longer there? In traditional recipes, some people put sugar, but those ar eall without cultures, so no initial fermentation, but a long one with ambient flora (which is very unreliable for most)
4) can I put less sugar, say 0.2%, if I am also going to be relying on long fermentation while drying, or is the ph drop solely reliant on amount of sugar? Mind you, as a traditionalist, I am still finding it hard to put safety high on my list of priorities (though with time I reckon I will), simply because I have never heard that anyone has ever been poisoned by home made sausage, and pretty much everyone I know makes them. I am (for now) only trying this for reliabiulity and taste of the final product.
5) exactly what kind of difference in taste can I expect in comparison to traditional process without starter cultures, assuming all goes well? I am primarily interested in cultures to be able to do good sausages reliably (once I build a fermenting chamber), but also it is said that pleasant taste notes are developed? But also sauernes? At what ph level does one really notice it, <5.3?
5) assuming fermentation goes well, and i move them to smokehouse to dry, how long should I wait to cold smoke, right away, ot wait a few more days?
6) If my idea with vacuum bags does not work, can i freeze some meat and use it later? Will that harm too much? If so, I guess I'll buy some industrial meat and try with that in a month or so after I finish the chamber, but I am really reluctant to go with that meat because it's infinitely inferior.
7) how long does the T-SPX hold in the freezer, up to 6 months? Assuming safety margins by manufacturer, can I stretch that to a year? If not, will it just not work, or can it be dangerous? Because usually I only make at most ~50kg/100 pounds of sausages every year, and even the smalles package is for 100kg. And this year for a start I would only try it on ~5kg/10 pounds.

I realize that all of these have been probably answered, and I AM reading like crazy, but in regards to this, I am a newbie, there are some contradicting advices, and my time frame is really limited now.
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Post by Bob K » Fri Nov 09, 2018 13:23

Welcome to the Forum Mark!
Since there are so many steps in your process that can't be done or monitored properly...I would wait until you can.

It is perfectly fine to freeze the meat. Your cultures, if stored frozen, will easily keep for 12-18 months.
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Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:01

Thanks Bob!

Bottleneck is humidistat, though I see many don't use that, so I might kick things off without it if I manage to build everything else.

Nevertheless, I'd still like someone to give some guidance on the questions I posted that are not related to what I don't have, namely 3-6 (hm, I have 2 5's :/ )?

For example, I can get glucose easily from many fitness shops, but since I would be dry curing for a long time (60 days), would it make sense to just use normal sugar, or does the culture (T-SPX) really needs that kick start with glucose?
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Post by Bob K » Sun Nov 11, 2018 14:03

Bottom line is there are not short answers to most of your questions, many overlap each other.

Lots of info here: https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... ed-sausage
http://netropolitan.co.nz/wp-content/up ... 141009.pdf
And also the in the book REdzed suggested
markizschnitzel wrote: I can get glucose easily from many fitness shops, but since I would be dry curing for a long time (60 days), would it make sense to just use normal sugar, or does the culture (T-SPX) really needs that kick start with glucose?
Short answer is yes, glucose is needed to obtain a faster ph drop to a Ph of 5.3 or lower - one of the safety hurdles.
Smoking can be done immediately after fermentation and depending on the temp will continue during the smoking process. From a safety standpoint nitrates should ALWAYS be added to smoked meat products.

The process of making this German salami is similar to the Hungarian salami you described so you can use the sugar and cure amounts as a starting point. But please adjust the amount of Culture recommended if you are making a small batch.
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... ner-salami
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Post by markizschnitzel » Mon Nov 12, 2018 18:01

Thanks again Bob

I see. In light of all of my 3 posts here and the advice I'd gotten, I'll postpone this project until I get all of the needed equipment, and understand all of the important stuff.

And it is true that on the associated website there really is all the info, but it's been overload for me, trying to remember all of the information.

For example, in all of the recipes I looked into, there was only cure#1. Including in the ones for traditional fermented sausages. I missed the point where it said that cure#2 is used exclusively in long fermented.

So, adding cure#2 into traditionally fermented sausages is not recommended because there are not enough starter culture bacteria to disintegrate nitrates intio nitrites? So a safety precosion because nitrates are poisonous?

As you can see, I am still strugling with differentiating with "traditional" and "longe fermented". In my mind they are the same, with the only difference being much more good bacteria from starter cultures in long fermented. But can't I just treat long fermented as traditional, after the fermentation period of 2-3 days is passed?
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Post by Bob K » Tue Nov 13, 2018 14:22

Could you give examples of the types sausages you consider traditional fermented, and what you consider long fermented.
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Post by markizschnitzel » Wed Nov 14, 2018 21:13

Sure Bob. I know I'm still wrong with the terminology on much of the stuff..

By traditional, I mean naturally fermented, without adding commercial starters.

An example from my region:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulen

I live right between north and south europe.
So our sausages are also somewhere in between southern and northern:
- slow fermented and dried (some up to 9 months, like Kulen I posted)
- higher final ph (~5.5-6 is considered best)
- aw usually significantly lower then 0.91
- smoked, like in the north

By LONG FERMENTED, I consider the type of sausages here that are eaten rew, are dried longer, and have commercial starter cultures added
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Post by redzed » Thu Nov 15, 2018 04:00

markizschnitzel wrote:So I have a few questions:
1) can I put sausages into a vacum bag to ferment and leave them in my home where we heat to ~22C?
No, not a good idea and something that is just not done.
2) fermentation stops at <12C AFAICT. After fermentation, sausages go into a smokehouse/drying chamber where the ambient temp will be between 5-10C. Since I don't have a PH meter as well, but I can (?) stop the fermentation by taking them outside, can I reliably know that PH will not drop below 5, ideally 5.3? Looking at Hansen meat manual 1, 0.3% glucose at 24C for 72h should be it.
Fermentation, which is essentially the production of lactic acid bacteria does not stop in its tracks once the temperature reaches 12C. It depends on the lactic acid strains in the mince, either added or naturally occurring, and the amounts of sugars still available at the time. There will be some lactic acid growth for an extended period of time. One study reflecting on this were tests where chorizo wad matured at a temp of 11C. Three samples were used: the first was with no nitrite/nitrate, the second with nitrite, and the third with nitrate. All had some lactic acid growth after the main fermentation stage, with the nitrate sample going for the longest period.
3) Can I substitute glucose for table sugar? Would that completely ruin the initial fermentation, or would I just need to keep it longer there? In traditional recipes, some people put sugar, but those ar eall without cultures, so no initial fermentation, but a long one with ambient flora (which is very unreliable for most)
Read the section on Sugars in The Bactoferm Meat Manual No.1. Glucose can be metabolized by all LAB. It is also metabolized very quickly since it is a simple, one cell sugar. Sucrose can be used with most, but not all LAB. It is metabolized at a slightly slower rate than glucose. Maltose will work with fewer bacteria and will be slower. So if you want a slower ferment, use a combination of sugars, but don`t omit glucose entirely. It will act almost immediately and provide protection against unwanted bacteria that might be present.
4) can I put less sugar, say 0.2%, if I am also going to be relying on long fermentation while drying, or is the ph drop solely reliant on amount of sugar? Mind you, as a traditionalist, I am still finding it hard to put safety high on my list of priorities (though with time I reckon I will), simply because I have never heard that anyone has ever been poisoned by home made sausage, and pretty much everyone I know makes them. I am (for now) only trying this for reliabiulity and taste of the final product.
It might be enough, there may be as much as .1% of glucose in the meat, but it also depends on the percentage of fat and quality of the meat you are using. Lactic acid does not grow in fat, and if the meat is not fresh, it may need more sugar because the pH has been elevated by spoilage bacteria. Until you have a bit more practice and test the pH at all stages, I would not add less than 3g. glucose or 2g. glucose and 2g sucrose.
5) exactly what kind of difference in taste can I expect in comparison to traditional process without starter cultures, assuming all goes well? I am primarily interested in cultures to be able to do good sausages reliably (once I build a fermenting chamber), but also it is said that pleasant taste notes are developed? But also sauernes? At what ph level does one really notice it, <5.3?
That will be for you to determine and judge.Traditional sausages are fermented only to a pH of 5.5-5.3, so there will be a slight sour note there under 5.3 and definitely under 5. In all your questions you are preoccupied with the effect of lactic bacteria, but don`t forget that that flavour and aroma is primarily formed by the Micrococcaceae species, such as Staphylococcus xylosus, and S. Carnosus. These occur naturally and by adding them in a starter culture you are elevating the total cell account and assuring that your sausages will indeed have that "traditional" taste.
5) assuming fermentation goes well, and i move them to smokehouse to dry, how long should I wait to cold smoke, right away, ot wait a few more days?
You can cold smoke almost any time, just keep in mind that smoking dries out the meat and you do need moisture for the bacteria to do its work and you want to avoid to dry the exterior and stop moisture from exiting the sausage. Cold smoke in a humid smoker.
6) If my idea with vacuum bags does not work, can i freeze some meat and use it later? Will that harm too much? If so, I guess I'll buy some industrial meat and try with that in a month or so after I finish the chamber, but I am really reluctant to go with that meat because it's infinitely inferior.
Fresh meat is the best, but you can make excellent quality products from frozen meat. Thaw the meat at refrigeration temperature and with as little exposure to oxygen as possible.
7) how long does the T-SPX hold in the freezer, up to 6 months? Assuming safety margins by manufacturer, can I stretch that to a year? If not, will it just not work, or can it be dangerous? Because usually I only make at most ~50kg/100 pounds of sausages every year, and even the smalles package is for 100kg. And this year for a start I would only try it on ~5kg/10 pounds.
The bacteria don`t all die on the expiry date on the package. I have successfully fermented with starter cultures that were frozen for three years. Of course the cell counts will be lower the older the starter, so just add more culture as the packet ages.
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 01:34

markizschnitzel,

Zdravo Markizschnitzel,

I can come over and visit you in Oprisavci next time when I go to Slavonia so we can have a talk about fermentation and cultures etc., if you are interested.
I am working with this in Croatia and Slovenia. Mainly at industrial producers but I have also experience with handling small scale manufacturing.
And I´m a great Kulen-fan :razz:

You may write to me on: eurofood@mail.tele.dk.

Ljiep pozdrav

Igor Tomaszewski
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
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