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Dave Zac
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Post by Dave Zac » Sat Jun 18, 2011 21:17

partycook wrote:Hi everyone,
I'm in the process of doing a dry run on my temperatures and humidity levels. I was wondering what you guys would suggest as a final rinse after washing the fermenter/cureing chamber and tools with soap and water.I know some folks that use a diluted bleach solution.I have tried this and it seems to leave a bleach oder, or am I mixing it to strong? I also would like to know if a fan is needed in my fermenting chamber (freezer 22 cu. feet)? I guess I worry about food safety. I had a party last year and a friend brought a dish to pass, 12 people got sick . It took the health department weeks to figure out what the source of the food poisoning was .

John
This close to fermentation I would use only hot water and soap. I would hate to mess up this beautiful process with a little bleach.

I got my chamber lined with Press n Seal early this afternoon. First check 4 hours later my humidity has zoomed to 90% :mrgreen: I'm ready
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Post by ssorllih » Sat Jun 18, 2011 21:40

If we can use vinegar to wipe the mold off the sausage why not use vinegar to clean the chamber walls? A little acid and a little salt should make the walls clean enough for the next batch. Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda is also an effective cleaner for bacteria.
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Post by partycook » Sat Jun 18, 2011 22:13

ssorllih wrote:If we can use vinegar to wipe the mold off the sausage why not use vinegar to clean the chamber walls? A little acid and a little salt should make the walls clean enough for the next batch. Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda is also an effective cleaner for bacteria.


Yes I have heard that peroxide works well against bacteria. when I worked in the brewery we used chlorine inside the fermenters and all the hoses where rinsed with an iodine solution before we added yeast.

John
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Post by ssorllih » Sun Jun 19, 2011 05:32

This is just a bit off topic but must be noted. The book, "Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages" contains much of the material in "This Web site" : http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... am-sausage. But I found an error of omission in the referenced recipe. In the book Cure #1 is included but it is absent in the recipe on the web site. I have contacted the authors and made note of it. This is a fairly new web site and such errors can be expected. If anyone finds something that doesn't seem right it should be brought to light for discussion and posible correction.
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Post by ssorllih » Sun Jun 19, 2011 06:11

I spent a little time closing seams and joints in my workmanship on the chamber. I am becoming convinced that this needs to be rather air tight and we must have control of the ventilation and not leave it to chance. If you have built your chamber and have difficultly with control I think that caulking the seams and joints would be a first step. Nature tries to restore a balance in all things. When we build a chamber such as this we are creating an environment that is not normal. All of the forces of nature will try to balance the temperature and humidity inside with the temperature and humidity outside.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sun Jun 19, 2011 07:10

Hi Guys,
I hope everyone is aware of the conversion page we have at our disposal. Here is a link: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... calculator
Uwanna wrote:
Do we add what ever seasoning meets our fancy from the optional to the above recipe? Also, the recipe calls for sugar, is this table sugar?
We can add 7 grams of any spices you`d like to put together and 4 grams of your favorite herbs. Not everyone likes the same flavors of certain herbs and spices, so we are given an option of using any combination as long as 7 grams are spices, and 4 grams are herbs. The sugar in the recipe is good ol` table sugar.

Uwanna, your Bactoberm™LHP is completely on the other end of the scale from the slow T-SPX we are using. The LHP is considered to be an "extra fast" culture and can drop a sausage to pH 5.0 in only 2 days! When this happens, the pediococcus acidilactici and pediococcus pentosaceus leave a very pronounced sour flavor behind. It is also fermented at 100°; F. (32°; more than our recipe using T-SPX). For pizza pepperoni, that kind of "tang" is alright for me, but in a salami... I`d suggest we go for the full-flavored, long-term, southern European style Genoa Salami called Alysanndra. I really do like your idea of using only a bit of white pepper, salt, and dextrose, however. That kind of treatment could only make it yummy good. As you probably know, old timers will always tell beginners that they tend to use way too many spices, but it seems like ALL beginners must learn that lesson the hard way. At least I did.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sun Jun 19, 2011 08:00

Our buddy Partycook wrote:
I was wondering what you guys would suggest as a final rinse after washing the fermenter/cureing chamber and tools with soap and water.I know some folks that use a diluted bleach solution.I have tried this and it seems to leave a bleach oder, or am I mixing it to strong?
Unless you`ve previously had a problem with mold build-up in your fermentation chamber, it should be clean enough with just good ol` soap and water. If you`ve had traces of any "colored" mold, go ahead and use a mild bleach solution if you are using a porcelain or plastic surface. Rinse it well. After that, rinse it well. Then before you put any meat in the thing, rinse it well. :roll: A few years ago, after a stint in the hospital, I came home only to discover that some bad mold had started and I thought I`d never get that crap out of the fermentation chamber (it has a white plastic interior). I finally had to scrub it out using a little mild vinegar-water solution. After a day, with the door open, I used a little Pine-Sol and water and rinsed it very well. The next time I made salami, the good ol` white penicillium nalgiovense took over again and crowded out anything else.

Partycook also wrote:
I also would like to know if a fan is needed in my fermenting chamber (freezer 22 cu. feet)? I guess I worry about food safety. I had a party last year and a friend brought a dish to pass, 12 people got sick. It took the health department weeks to figure out what the source of the food poisoning was.
Your fermentation chamber should absolutely include a fan. Read back through the previous posts in this particular forum for that information. We will start out by removing air at about 2.2 MPH and drop to just a little over 1.5 by the end of 72 hours. Also be aware that during this time, the temperature is dropped slightly also.

Oh, and Uwanna commented about using wine in his sausage. I agree with him that it is perhaps best to just leave it out. The stuff denatures proteins (unravels them) and causes a loosening of the texture somewhat. You must remember that this is an old Italian recipe and those folks put wine in everything. I`m married to one and so are all my siblings! Italians are great people and good ol` burgundy is fine... in the spaghetti sauce! Just as a recommendation, I`d leave it out of your first batch and try adding a little later as you become more experienced. Never, never, ever... use a "cooking wine". That stuff is so full of salt it will ruin your salami. I wouldn`t even use that crap to put out a good campfire!

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:13

Ross wrote:
I spent a little time closing seams and joints in my workmanship on the chamber. I am becoming convinced that this needs to be rather air tight and we must have control of the ventilation and not leave it to chance. If you have built your chamber and have difficultly with control I think that caulking the seams and joints would be a first step.
Ross, ol` buddy, I`ve been chuckling for a couple of hours. :lol: Seems, you have learned something the hard way. Yes, it must be "rather air-tight", or at least "fairly" air tight. Enough so there`s not an "ingress" of uncontrolled air. In a wooden cabinet chamber, this could be a challenge. Silicone caulking is a good idea.

Let`s look at what we are attempting to do with our "fermentation chambers". We are going to purposely spoil meat... but it will be controlled spoilage called fermentation. Many foods are prepared in such a manner. And what causes this "spoiling"? Bacteria. In meat, we use lactobacillus and pediococcus, feeding on sugar (carbohydrates) to produce lactic acid. This bacteria competes for nutrition with the undesirable spoilage bacteria (brochotrix thermosphacta and pseudomonas spp.) et. al., as well as pathogenic bacteria of several varieties. Of greatest concern are staphylococcus aureus, clostridium botulinum, listeria monocytogenes, escherichia coli, salmonella, clostridium perfringens, campylobacter jejuni, shigella, and bacillus cereus.

What makes these bacteria safe when consumed in meat, cheese, or any fermented food? Acidity! Bacteria do not do well in an acidic environment. In meat, lactobacilli produces acidity and when it increases, dropping to a point between 3.8 and 5.5 on the pH scale, it becomes safe to consume. The acidity of a sausage is determined by the amount and the type of sugar placed into the recipe. The speed of the fermentation period is increased as the temperature is increased inside the chamber. It ceases when no more lactic acid is produced. This happens when there is no more sugar available to the lactobacilli. It will also stop when the temperature is lowered below 53°; F., or heated beyond 120°; F. Fermentation will also discontinue when there is no longer free water available to the lactobacilli. In other words, if the sausage dries too quickly due to either (a.) low humidity, or (b.) too fast an air speed, while in our fermentation chambers, fermentation will cease. We must also remember to use a specific amount of nitrate/nitrite to combat any possible clostridium botulinum. The toxins of the spores are deadly. Measure carefully.

OK wranglers, while the increase in acidity is taking place, we must contain the growth of the pathogenic and spoilage bacteria somehow (while the lactobacilli go to work). The most convenient method is to simply lock up or "bind" their water supply. This is accomplished by the use of salt, and a prescribed amount will bind their reserve. As the "water activity" drops to a point below Aw 0.86, a meat product has dried enough to consume safely.

You may be wondering why the salt doesn`t affect the lactic acid-producing bacteria also. Well, it does... but not to the same degree. Lactobacilli and pediococci are somewhat resistant to salt. Not only that, but they perform rather well having a limited water supply.

Summing it all up, we allow the sausage to ferment as lactic acid microorganisms go to work producing acid. This is where we get the "tang". When it reaches proper acidity, it become safe to consume. While this is happening, we also start drying the sausage to achieve a point below .86 Aw. All this takes time... time in which pathogenic and spoilage bacteria may also grow in number by competing with the food supply. As we "bind" their supply of water, they start to die and the beneficial bacteria eventually take over. So... in essence, there are TWO things going for us. Acidity and dehydration. Both work! They`ve worked for thousands of years. But they MUST be controlled.

OK guys, it`s time to start grindin` and stuffin`. Please obey all the rules of cleanliness, cover your hair, and don`t cough! Wash and scrub your hands! Good luck and I`ll check in with you in about 12 hours. :mrgreen:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Dave Zac » Sun Jun 19, 2011 19:32

Well, here we are. This is my son holding our baby! He helped my stuff and has always had a growing interest in sausage making and self sufficiency.
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Hanging and ready to close the door for the day. Oh yeah...while I was grinding, mixing, fermenting and curing, I decided to do a spanish chorizo too. (Hanging on left) er bottom...I'll be darned if I can get this image to display correctly.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Jun 20, 2011 02:33

That is just gorgeous work Dave! Did you dip or spray the B-600? Did you remember to record everything in a notebook? Write down every little possible detail you can remember. You won't believe how handy this info will become later on. Hey, that's a mighty handsome buckaroo holding the salamis. My wife thinks he's "adorable". That's a word old folks like us use for other people's youngsters! :lol: Did he help grind and stuff?
Hey Dave, I've got your photo trouble figured out. Just hold your camera at a 90 degree angle next time! :roll: har, har, har! That's terrific work Dave. Now, could you explain what you did and also what is happening inside the chamber if someone were to ask you?
Keep up the good work pal!

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by ssorllih » Mon Jun 20, 2011 03:28

I have my meats and fat ground but ran out of time, energy, and enthusiasm. Because variety is the spice of life and because Longaniza, slow fermented Pepperoni and Genona Salami all have the same curing schedules I have decided to make two kilos of each instead of five kilos of salami. Will mix, season, and stuff tomorrow.
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Post by Dave Zac » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:45

Chuckwagon wrote:That is just gorgeous work Dave! Did you dip or spray the B-600?
I got the impression from the directions that I should wait to spray until after fermentation period is over. I will spray tonight
Did you remember to record everything in a notebook? Write down every little possible detail you can remember. You won't believe how handy this info will become later on.
I did write down everything...great tip
Hey, that's a mighty handsome buckaroo holding the salamis. My wife thinks he's "adorable". That's a word old folks like us use for other people's youngsters! :lol: Did he help grind and stuff?
He did help. He loves this stuff too!
Hey Dave, I've got your photo trouble figured out. Just hold your camera at a 90 degree angle next time! :roll: har, har, har! That's terrific work Dave. Now, could you explain what you did and also what is happening inside the chamber if someone were to ask you?
Yeah I'm pretty sure I can explain it as far as I understand it...great teacher of course.

Next question. As of 6:15 am (eastern time) and only 16 hours after hanging and I had my fan on 3 MPH best I can tell. Humidity can't seem to get above 82% and the outside of the casing is bone dry. Seems too dry to me and now I worry about case hardening of course. I re soaked some towels and turned the fan off this morning to what happens when I get home from work. Bad idea?
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Jun 20, 2011 22:47

Geeeze Ross, So far in the last couple of days you`ve only transported and launched your boat, corrected a few recipes, fixed a leaking fermentation cabinet, answered lots of mail, learned all about fermented sausage and ground ten pounds of it. I just can`t imagine the reason why, at age 72, you`ve "run out of time, energy, and enthusiasm"!

Oh, and Dave, I`ve been runnin` around with too few zzz`s. AFTER the fermentation, wipe away the moisture on the sausages, THEN spray them with Bactoferm Mold-600. If you`ve already done it, don`t worry about it. There is actually no incorrect method or bad time to do it if you are using the same chamber for drying as you are for fermenting. The critical thing to remember is that we need at least 75% humidity for mold to grow.

Dave also wrote:
Next question. As of 6:15 am (eastern time) and only 16 hours after hanging and I had my fan on 3 MPH best I can tell. Humidity can't seem to get above 82% and the outside of the casing is bone dry. Seems too dry to me and now I worry about case hardening of course. I re soaked some towels and turned the fan off this morning to what happens when I get home from work. Bad idea?
Bad idea? Not at all, Dave. The most critical thing in the fermentation chamber is to provide a warm, humid atmosphere for the bacteria to multiply. This early into the fermentation period, ALL bacteria are multiplying and competing for the available water. It is the salt that is binding the available water to the pathogenic bacteria and keeping them from multiplying while the lactobacilli go to work.

Yes, you can case harden it if there is too much air speed. Turning off the fan is fine and even advisable in order to boost the humidity to nearly 90%. Now is the time we want a full egress of moisture through evaporation (watch your hygrometer and try to keep it above 85%). However, the surplus must be vented to the outside somehow or you`ll have a big wet mess. At long intervals of even half a day or so, you`ll probably want to run the fan for just a few minutes. Some people open the doors each day and fan the air out with a magazine or newspaper. Now you can see the value of automatic controls eh? Don`t worry, after the fermentation period, the drying won`t be so intense and checking it once a day will usually suffice. Hang in there dude! Oh, by the way, what is your son`s name? It`s always nice to have some help eh?

22:38Hrs.
Davezac brought up a very important point that we should be aware of at this stage. He stated that his sausages were dry in the fermentation chamber. I advised him to turn off his fan. I`d like to explain why it is proper to turn off the fan if no moisture is detected on the sausage`s surface.
(Dave: Please check your humidistat and let us know how much humidity you have in the chamber at this point.)

Remember, the purpose of fermentation is to increase the acidity of the meat in order to increase its microbiological safety. It does does not make it taste better. In contrast, it develops a sour flavor, increasing the growth (number) of bacteria as the meat is warmed. Moisture is needed to nourish the lactobacilli and pediococci. If you`ve ever seen the production of sausages in a commercial plant, you`ll have noticed that chopping, grinding, mixing, and stuffing, all take place at 0°;C. This is only about a degree or two above the freezing point of meat. When the sausage is removed to a much warmer fermentation room having a temperature anywhere from 68°; F. to 105°; F., condensation is sure to develop. To avoid condensation on the sausages` surfaces, it is placed in the fermentation chamber at room temperature, with an initial low humidity of only about 60%, and no air speed. Depending upon the diameter of the sausages, the duration of time varies from merely an hour to six hours. It is important to note that in this level of low humidity, if a draft of air were introduced, case hardening could possibly become a problem as unnecessary drying might take place until the humidity were raised. Any case-hardening at this point, would certainly affect the fermentation AND the ensuing drying process. So, while the sausage is in the fermentation chamber, use the fan only if there is moisture on the sausage. As the fan removes the excessive moisture, simply click it off. Whew! What a pain in the... uhhh... neck. Now you may see why folks use electronic controls.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Last edited by Chuckwagon on Tue Jun 21, 2011 05:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by uwanna61 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 23:06

Hey all
Di Alessanddra stuffed and in the curing cabinet (fridge). I could not do the 72 hr fermenting in my smoker due to the temperatures here, night time lows 45 -55 and day time in the low 80`s. So I finished stuffing and in the chamber (fridge) they went. So far I feel pretty good about the grind, mix and stuffing. The chamber is holding at 85-90% humidity and the temp is spot on at 68 degrees.

Chuckwagon
I have a major itch to make a dry cured pepperoni, in the upcoming days :razz: and would like to add a second batch to the chamber (fridge). Would it be safe to dry cure another batch of salami (pepperoni) in the chamber along with the Alessandra, after the pepperoni ferment process is complete? I was just concerned with cross contamination; I suppose that could happen anytime, if one was not careful. I`m just not sure if I should add another batch, during the curing process, and if it would disrupt the first (alessandra) salami.
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Post by uwanna61 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 23:53

Ok, so I lost my salami production photos, camera / PC issues. Anyhow I took a few snap shots of the curing chamber, which is fermenting at the moment, I hope! I also and logged into photobucket for the first time and lets see how this works :o

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