Yogourt as starter culture in sausage making
I agree with a lot of what CW has to say but I would like to play devil's advocate and address a few points.
Firstly this is a thread about the viability of using yogurt as a means of fermenting. Many constructive and informative points have been made as to why it may not be the ideal culture choice. However the fact remains that it does work well in one critical respect: it can reliably lower the pH to a safe level.
Imparting flavor is debatable but I would like to think that maybe other indigenous bacteria will find their way into the meat and do this job. Definitely something for more thought if I do a dry salami.
Another point is that $15 doesn't register as a significant amount to us Westerners however it is a sizable amount when it equates to 1/2 your monthly income. Here in Burma many people are earning just $30/month. Also ordering from America is not as simple as it may seem; sanctions, payment methods, post reliability, can all affect this option.
Just one final point about lactose being a bad fermenting sugar. Sure it is not a simple mono saccharide like dextrose. It will, in fact break down from a di saccharide to galactose and dextrose. Having said that, it can cause fermentation to happen very quickly in the presence of compatible bacteria. Anyone who has left milk out for a for a few hours on a warm day can attest to this.
My 2 cents!
Firstly this is a thread about the viability of using yogurt as a means of fermenting. Many constructive and informative points have been made as to why it may not be the ideal culture choice. However the fact remains that it does work well in one critical respect: it can reliably lower the pH to a safe level.
Imparting flavor is debatable but I would like to think that maybe other indigenous bacteria will find their way into the meat and do this job. Definitely something for more thought if I do a dry salami.
Another point is that $15 doesn't register as a significant amount to us Westerners however it is a sizable amount when it equates to 1/2 your monthly income. Here in Burma many people are earning just $30/month. Also ordering from America is not as simple as it may seem; sanctions, payment methods, post reliability, can all affect this option.
Just one final point about lactose being a bad fermenting sugar. Sure it is not a simple mono saccharide like dextrose. It will, in fact break down from a di saccharide to galactose and dextrose. Having said that, it can cause fermentation to happen very quickly in the presence of compatible bacteria. Anyone who has left milk out for a for a few hours on a warm day can attest to this.
My 2 cents!
Hello Redzed
That was an inspiring post indeed!
You are way too scientific than I could ever be but from your research you have given me some hope that I can be the traditionalist that I am at heart...meaning that I don't need to always buy a manufactured commercial product to achieve the results that you have kindly shown here on this forum.
My wife makes a lot of ferments such as Yogurt and Kafir as well as kimche and Sourcrout....She also make cheeses so Whey is always available in our fridge too.....She uses Both Raw Cow and Goats milk for her yogurt and kafir that is locally produced.....
Since reading your post I will now have a bash at Salami or whatever with some of our homemade yogurts and kafir and or Whey/or Kimche juice....Which of course is basically a brine with probiotics as a result of the fermentation.
Userla informed me about backsloping too.....so with the knowledge from both of you I 'll at some time soon have a go!....Thanks very much
Regards
A total beginner
Aaron
That was an inspiring post indeed!
You are way too scientific than I could ever be but from your research you have given me some hope that I can be the traditionalist that I am at heart...meaning that I don't need to always buy a manufactured commercial product to achieve the results that you have kindly shown here on this forum.
My wife makes a lot of ferments such as Yogurt and Kafir as well as kimche and Sourcrout....She also make cheeses so Whey is always available in our fridge too.....She uses Both Raw Cow and Goats milk for her yogurt and kafir that is locally produced.....
Since reading your post I will now have a bash at Salami or whatever with some of our homemade yogurts and kafir and or Whey/or Kimche juice....Which of course is basically a brine with probiotics as a result of the fermentation.
Userla informed me about backsloping too.....so with the knowledge from both of you I 'll at some time soon have a go!....Thanks very much
Regards
A total beginner
Aaron
Hi Aaaron. Please read my posts carefully. Not just any lactic bacteria can be used in meat products. There is a lot of info in scientific journals available on this subject. And you have to understand that you don't have the protection from listeria and e. coli that you have in using commercial bacteria. So please be careful.
Hello Redzed...thanks for your post
Yes, of course i will research this more fully....... it is the idea of keeping it all simple with natural products is what appeals to me.......There are other benefits too like the added probiotics, especially if using Kefir as there are far more probiotics in kefir than yogurt.....I would like to experiment with this also to see if there is any flavour enhancement or any change in colour and or texture......I suppose I'm like a kid in a candy store right now so it is all very exciting stuff!!...Please excuse me!!! Lol
Regards
Aaron
Yes, of course i will research this more fully....... it is the idea of keeping it all simple with natural products is what appeals to me.......There are other benefits too like the added probiotics, especially if using Kefir as there are far more probiotics in kefir than yogurt.....I would like to experiment with this also to see if there is any flavour enhancement or any change in colour and or texture......I suppose I'm like a kid in a candy store right now so it is all very exciting stuff!!...Please excuse me!!! Lol
Regards
Aaron
Of course, you can experiment to your heart's content, and I fully understand, since I too like to try different things. But be careful, and make safety a priority. As far a kefir in salami, not really recommended and probably unsuitable. Do you know which lactic bacteria and the amount your kefir contains? And the high amount of yeasts in kefir will probably result in an off-tasting product. Let us know of the results.
No Redzed, i don't know which lactic bacteria is in our homemade kefir but the starter culture came from a pasteurised yogurt that was made locally...My wife just keeps adding a little of her previous batch to the new and so on etc.
I'll give it a go for give it a go sake and I'll see what happens.
Regards
Aaron
I'll give it a go for give it a go sake and I'll see what happens.
Regards
Aaron
Hi Redzed...I've just googled bacteria in yogurt and got the following:
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, other Lactobacillus strains, Streptococcus thermophilus, and bifidobacteria.
Apparently it could be one or all...but usually Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus bulgaricus.
If this was to be the case then ......What are your thought on those strains being introduced as a starter culture?
Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, other Lactobacillus strains, Streptococcus thermophilus, and bifidobacteria.
Apparently it could be one or all...but usually Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus bulgaricus.
If this was to be the case then ......What are your thought on those strains being introduced as a starter culture?
Redzed
I found this quote in Wikapedia on kefir:
Recent research revealed kefir grains that were cultured in a medium which had been contaminated with the coliform bacteria E. coli actually inhibited the growth of this organism. It was shown that certain batches of kefir grains completely suppressed the growth of E. coli for a period of at least 25 hours.[12][13]
I found this quote in Wikapedia on kefir:
Recent research revealed kefir grains that were cultured in a medium which had been contaminated with the coliform bacteria E. coli actually inhibited the growth of this organism. It was shown that certain batches of kefir grains completely suppressed the growth of E. coli for a period of at least 25 hours.[12][13]
Aaron, I am not qualified to respond to your questions, and I certainly don't wish to speculate or guess. There actually exists a considerable body of scientific literature in using probiotics in making dry cured products, you can review some of it and make your own conclusions. As far as kefir, which contains a whole witches brew of ingredients, I have never ran across anything credible in using it to ferment sausage.
Here are few papers you might want to peruse: (The first one on the list inspired me to use the same cultures as in that study, that I found in different brands of yogourt and probiotic supllements in capsule form).
http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/ma ... oprote.pdf
http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/nut ... 26page%3D3
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gshjWAm ... ge&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22062105
Here are few papers you might want to peruse: (The first one on the list inspired me to use the same cultures as in that study, that I found in different brands of yogourt and probiotic supllements in capsule form).
http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/ma ... oprote.pdf
http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/nut ... 26page%3D3
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gshjWAm ... ge&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22062105
redzed wrote:Aaron, I am not qualified to respond to your questions, and I certainly don't wish to speculate or guess. There actually exists a considerable body of scientific literature in using probiotics in making dry cured products, you can review some of it and make your own conclusions. As far as kefir, which contains a whole witches brew of ingredients, I have never ran across anything credible in using it to ferment sausage.
Here are few papers you might want to peruse: (The first one on the list inspired me to use the same cultures as in that study, that I found in different brands of yogourt and probiotic supllements in capsule form).
http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/ma ... oprote.pdf
http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/nut ... 26page%3D3
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gshjWAm ... ge&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22062105
Thanks for the links Redzed
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Actually, I have not been using it since the experiment. I use cultures so that I have more certainty and consistency in my sausage, and my pH probe is kaput. But will probably experiment again over the winter months.Wurstastrophe wrote:This is some great information!
Are you still using yoghurt as a culture, redzed?