Using binders when making sausage

kakallatt
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Using binders when making sausage

Post by kakallatt » Tue May 15, 2018 02:13

Does anyone NOT use a binder when making smoked Polish sausage? I'm smoking about 15 lbs now and have used the Rytek Kutas recipe of using soy protein or powdered milk. I vaguely remember my Grandfather in the 50's when He had a grocery store and I'm almost sure he never used any. What would be the difference with / without? Using a combination apple /cherry wood this time. Have used each singularly both seem a lot better than the hickory or mesquite I used in the past. Thanks everyone, I really enjoy this site and Thanks for any help and information. I know experience is the best teacher. Krakowska :grin: :grin: :grin:
Last edited by kakallatt on Sun Jul 29, 2018 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by StefanS » Tue May 15, 2018 02:56

kakallatt,Welcome, it is nice to have you here.
kakallatt wrote:Does anyone NOT use a binder when making smoked Polish sausage?
never used any kind of binder for Polish sausage (smoked or not), salami, etc.
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redzed
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Post by redzed » Tue May 15, 2018 15:03

Hi kakallatt.I make my smoked Polish style sausages without the additions of soy or milk powder. Take a look at the recipes in the link below, none have any binders.
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... es#recipes
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Post by Kijek » Thu May 17, 2018 14:40

Same here, I don't use any binders in anything I make, so I wouldn't know the difference.
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Post by martin » Sat May 19, 2018 02:31

Hi
Just make 15 lb ( 7 kg ) Polish sausage special for grilling. Yes I use soy protein 2 g per 1 kg . Sausage is very good moist and plump not cramble. In Poland some sausage makers use for binder(emulsion) clas 3 pork , or beff , but without cutter is not easy .
If you make sausage for eating from hand, or for cold cuts in my opinion you can skip binders , but for grilling , fire pit or frying and if fat content in sausage is like 20% or more and if you using small hole plate the binder is very good thing
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Post by redzed » Sat May 19, 2018 17:46

martin wrote:Hi
Just make 15 lb ( 7 kg ) Polish sausage special for grilling. Yes I use soy protein 2 g per 1 kg . Sausage is very good moist and plump not cramble. In Poland some sausage makers use for binder(emulsion) clas 3 pork , or beff , but without cutter is not easy .
If you make sausage for eating from hand, or for cold cuts in my opinion you can skip binders , but for grilling , fire pit or frying and if fat content in sausage is like 20% or more and if you using small hole plate the binder is very good thing
I agree that using soy or milk powder can improve the bind and retain moisture, especially if we are not using a portion of finely ground class III pork or beef. But too many recipes call for copious amounts, especially the ones in the Rytek Kutas book. Usually 1% is adequate. And if using skim milk powder it has to be the non-instant type. The stuff you buy in the grocery store dissolves immediately and has almost no binding properties.
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Post by Kijek » Sat May 19, 2018 19:06

The stuff you buy in the grocery store dissolves immediately and has almost no binding properties.
I'm glad you mentioned that, even though I don't use binders, I have often played with the thought, of trying them and thought about trying the store bought milk powder.
I guess I'll stay away from that and just buy a meat binder, if I try, and I might.
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Post by martin » Sun May 20, 2018 02:34

Non Fat Dry Milk and soy protein concentrate you can buy easily online , I bought mine at sausagemaker.com .
NFDM i use for brats or very fine ground sausages - 10g per 1 kg ( sorry my mistake last post , 1-2 %)
Soy protein for Polish grilling sausage where fat content is 25- 30 % and i add 15-20g per 1 kg
If use this binders i ad little more cold water to mince 80 - 100 mill per 1 kg ( 1 cup for 5 lb)
I like like my sausage taste little bit like I buy in market in Poland ,grilling sausage wich is so popular on the grill .
So my recipe: Per 1 kg mince ( boston butt - fatty one)
2 g insta cure
15 g kosher salt
2 g garlic granulated
2 g ground peper
0,5 g chipotle paprika
1,5 g ground coriander
1g ascent (msg)
90 mill cold water
15g soy protein
l use 6 mm plate , or lean meat 8 mm fat meat 6 mm
Smoking with drying 3 h temp 55 st C
Poaching 30 min in 73 st C water ( celcius)

Ps Kijek I live 45 min from Stamford
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Post by Kijek » Sun May 20, 2018 13:08

Ps Kijek I live 45 min from Stamford
That's so funny, as I started to read your post I glanced over to see where you were from,, I saw New England and thought where you might be, then at saw your PS, LOL

Maybe one day we can make some large amounts together?
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Post by sausagemaneric » Sun Jul 29, 2018 02:23

I've always used Soy Protein in my smoked sausages for the simple reason, Rytek said to. I have wandered what it would be like if you didn't. One thing, Soy Protein costs more than the meat! Also, it's not the easiest thing to blend in to the meat. I generally use a fair amount of fatty meat ground through the 3/16" grinder, which I imagine is about 3-4mm in metric. I mix that with my coarse/clean meat. I would think if I had enough salt and mixed it well enough to extract protein it would bind adequately.
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Post by redzed » Sun Jul 29, 2018 16:20

sausagemaneric, I think your question has been answered in the posts above. As there is more than one way to skin the cat, there is more than one way to develop a bind in a sausage. Traditional Polish sausages don't contain any additional binders. Instead, meat is always classified and a portion of the meat, usually 10-20% is class III pork or beef is added which will aid in achieving a good natural bind. The class III meats are ground through your finest plate once or even twice, mixed separately for an extended period with an addition of as much water as the sausage paste can hold, and then added to the other meats. Fat does not bind the meats, but rather lean meats with connective tissue from cuts that are from the parts of the animal that are exercised the most and have a darker colour. Hock meat and parts of the picnic works the best. Beef can hold more water than pork and you can buy an inexpensive lean beef roast and use that instead. If we are working with a small amount meat, less than 5kg, using this method is not always possible so there is nothing wrong with using soy protein powder. Yes it is expensive, but you don't need to use it in the amounts recommended by Mr. Kutas. I occasionally add non instant milk powder, and have found that 1% or even less, is adequate.

You will also have a better natural bind if you cube your meats, mix thoroughly with salt and curing salt, pack into a closed container and cure in fridge for 48 hours. The meat will absorb the salts during this time and and the process of extracting the myosin will be well on its way. After you grind the meat it will already be sticky.
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Post by Butterbean » Sun Jul 29, 2018 19:51

I used to use binders a lot but as I got more experienced I found I no longer need them in most applications.
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Post by polka » Fri Aug 24, 2018 00:15

Quote: You will also have a better natural bind if you cube your meats, mix thoroughly with salt and curing salt, pack into a closed container and cure in fridge for 48 hours. The meat will absorb the salts during this time and and the process of extracting the myosin will be well on its way. After you grind the meat it will already be sticky.
<snip>

Oh! Okay! I have been to some Czech recipe sites, and wondered about the salted, cured meat thing on some of them, before grinding, adding herbs and spice, and then mixing, stuffing etc. Now I know why they are doing that. Thanks for the insight!

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Post by sausagemaneric » Sat Sep 15, 2018 04:29

So if I were to make a "Fresh Hot Link", meaning, not using a cure, but hot smoking it to 155 degrees using a water smoker and keeping the temp in the safe 180-195 degrees fahrenheit. Would the same idea of salting the cubed meat and placing it in the cooler for 48hr work to gain some bind?
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Post by polka » Sun Sep 16, 2018 04:52

Hey SausageManEric

The salt is what help the reaction with the myosin protein to make the sticky bind. So, I would say yes to that.

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