But... its better for you, right?

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Butterbean
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Post by Butterbean » Tue Jul 31, 2012 17:35

Cabonaia wrote:I tried curing some bacon with just sea salt - a very grey salt my wife buys in 20 lb sacks. After a week or so in a dry cure, the bacon came out quite pink/cured looking. I hot smoked it and it tastes exactly like bacon cured with pink salt (cure #1). I did 2 slabs side/by/side, one with just the sea salt and one with cure #1 and sea salt. They were the same, which probably means my bacon with seat salt AND #1 had a lot of nitrite in it. :shock:

Made the just-sea salt version for a friend whose daughter gets migraines, and they suspect nitrites/nitrates. Her daughter consumed my sea salt bacon without any problem. They normally buy "nitrate/nitrite-free bacon" from Trader Joe's, which is cured with celery juice powder. My wife bought some celery-juice powder cured pastrami from the same store, and it had nitrite burn - a translucent green shimmer! Ugh. Anyone concerned with cured meats in their diets should stay away from that wholesome stuff, it would seem.
I think your logic is pretty sound. One other thing about sea salt is not all sea salt is the same so it may have different levels of nitrates/ites in them. Oftentimes knowing the amount is important for safety sake.

I wholeheartedly agree about the celery juice. Bacon sold "nitrate free" using this stuff has been shown to have much higher levels of nite's than traditional - but its better for you right? :mrgreen:
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Jul 31, 2012 18:20

Butter Bean-O wrote:
but its better for you right?
Yeah... right!
Hey beans-in-the-butter, I wish you headed up the FSIS. Maybe you could get rid of aspertame also. I'm violently allergic to the crap but it seems to sneak in on me every now and then. Maybe when DaveZac becomes president in 2012, he will appoint you as head of the USDA eh? :wink:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by Cabonaia » Tue Jul 31, 2012 18:24

It was all kind of interesting. But I am not going the just-sea salt route anymore. There is other stuff in typical "store bought" bacon that may bother this little girl. Just as celery juice powder is variable in nitrite content, sea salt is as well. Probably much moreso. I prefer going the tried and true path of curing bacon with Cure #1 and kosher salt. This also keeps me off Chuckwagon's idiot list! :mrgreen:

Given what I've learned, I don't think nitrite could be giving this little girl migraines if she doesn't get migraines from meat saturated in celery juice powder. Just doesn't make sense. Her mother thinks the difference is that celery juice powder is a natural form of nitrite. I did a little research and found out that much of the world's supply of nitrite is mined in South America. Sounds natural to me (whatever "natural" means). Kind of like mined salt, which is "sea salt" too, just aged! I've also never heard any convincing argument for how our bodies can distinguish where a chemical compound cames from and benefit from one over the other. There could be something to do with refining processes that makes a difference, depending on what is being refined. Keeping my mind open on this one while sticking with the tried and true. And NOT eating green pastrami!!
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Post by Butterbean » Tue Jul 31, 2012 21:41

I like your open minded way of thinking. There seems to be a lot of misinformation pertaining to nites on the internet. It appears to me that a lot of this is fueled by people who have a financial interest in spreading misinformation for a greater market share and to allow them to charge more for their inefficiencies. Of course, there are some who are just idiots and as you say, Chuckwagon has them on his list. :lol:

I get a chuckle from time to time reading some of the nite-free people's writings on the net but what concerns me is I'm afraid someone who out of ignorance will hurt themselves if when they cure something and they have been led to believe that the nites are unneccessary. I think it also ironic that many of these same people who wish to get closer to the land cannot see that the use of nites is just that as it is simply taking advantage of the natural nitrogen cycle and using it for our good. What could be more natural than that? You would think this should be applauded.

I've had a bit of chemistry in my life and, like you, can't see where a nite coming from a dried seabed could be any different than a nite coming from fresh polluted seawater today. Its still a nite. But I'm also confused at how some people will swear they are lactose intolerant and can only drink raw unpasturized raw milk. Lactose is lactose is it not?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for living off the land and all that and up to about five years ago I drank raw unpasturized milk until I learned why pasturization was so important. It was a hard lesson. Liked to have killed me for over a week. At times I even wished I was dead but I learned my lesson and I learned it well. I'll take their word for it that botulism is worse than e-coli or salmonella or whatever the heck it was in that milk I drank. Ain't going there again. :lol: :lol:
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Jul 31, 2012 22:30

Someone was telling me how very fond they are of hominy. And I told them that I had made some from dried corn and an alkali solution made from calcium hydroxide and then rinsed and neutralized. They couldn't believe that it could be safe to eat chemicals.
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Post by Cabonaia » Wed Aug 01, 2012 00:18

Ross - if you told them you used wood ashes they would have been thrilled!

Butterbean - I ate street food in Malaysia and that was a great way to lose weight! Though my body seemed intent on expelling its organs, which was probably going too far. Guess I'd do it again though - it was that good. Your raw milk story scares me as my wife has switched to it with a vengeance. :shock: I generally don't drink it because I am not worthy, but I hope it doesn't do her in. That's a whole nother story. Not to mention grass fed beef, pastured pork, free running vegetarian chickens (!!), non-GMO organic locally grown sustainably harvested heirloom farm-to-table vegetables. Good-bye paycheck. Gotta take a second job these days just to be all natural.
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Aug 01, 2012 02:41

I agree there is nothing better than whole milk but I think its risky to drink without pasturizing. Heck, all you need to do is heat it to 140F for 30 minutes and you won't experience the wonderous week I endured. :oops: And it tastes the same so why take the risk? For me, it was laziness. Plain and simple.

I raise our meat and vegetables but I'm not going to go overboard.
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Post by laripu » Wed Aug 01, 2012 02:41

Butterbean wrote:But I'm also confused at how some people will swear they are lactose intolerant and can only drink raw unpasturized raw milk. Lactose is lactose is it not?
Raw milk may be dangerous (with some low but significant probability), but it also contains enzymes and lactobacillus which help with digestion by breaking down the lactose.... but that's just me guessing. When I used to make goat cheese I always lightly pasteurized the raw milk because I didn't want to die. ;)
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Post by crustyo44 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 06:45

Hi,
There are no stupid questions on this forum, this one might qualify though. Raw milk got me baffled, I have drunk it for years as a kid straight from the cow.
Now everybody is jumping up and down that this has to be pasturised. Why the sudden change?
Has it become toxic or what? or are we becoming processed food junkies with no tolerance to proper foods.

Best Regards,
Jan.
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Post by ssorllih » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:58

I believe that if you grow up on a farm and drink the water and the milk you develop some resistance tothe many strains of bacteria that are present. I am one with just such experience. I am reluctant to drink raw milk from an unknown source.
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Post by Cabonaia » Wed Aug 01, 2012 15:31

Well, we all need to pick our risks. What milk we do drink is raw milk that we get from friends. We have bought it before, but dang is it expensive and I don't think it's worth it. If you can get good clean raw milk from a very trusted source, I think it is a more wholesome product and better for you than the alternative. The majority of raw milk disease outbreaks in the US comes from queso fresco, a fresh cheese that is commonly made in bathtubs. Recently an outbreak occurred from gouda (a pastuerized cheese) a Costco was handing out as samples. What was that all about? A teenage girl we know recently nearly died from e coli she got from sushi. She was eating out with friends who all ate the same sushi and didn't get sick. The teenage son of some good friends is currently going through a terrible bout of poisoning from something he picked up while on vacation with his family. They all went to the same places and ate the same things. Which all goes to say, there is some risk in eating anything, as us sausage makers well know! It makes me want to be a very "trusted source" of clean product for anybody who eats what I make. I think my ground pork and ground hamburger is likely to be more wholesome than what I can buy because, apart from raising and butchering the animal, I perform all the other steps along the way and am diligent about cleanliness and temperature control. My ground meat is from one animal, not a hundred or a thousand. If I had a cow, I would definitely be more confident about the safety and wholesomeness of the milk it produced than what I could buy, and would not pastuerize it. But again, everybody has to decide for themselves!
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Aug 01, 2012 16:57

laripu wrote:
Butterbean wrote:But I'm also confused at how some people will swear they are lactose intolerant and can only drink raw unpasturized raw milk. Lactose is lactose is it not?
Raw milk may be dangerous (with some low but significant probability), but it also contains enzymes and lactobacillus which help with digestion by breaking down the lactose.... but that's just me guessing. When I used to make goat cheese I always lightly pasteurized the raw milk because I didn't want to die. ;)
Good explanation and I think that is the reasoning behind making sweet milk. But it is my understanding that milk contains lots of bacteria both good and sometimes bad. Its also my understanding that lactobacillus comes from the gastrointestinal tract and is not produced in the mammary gland itself. With this belief I would think the presense of this bacteria would indicate there is a possibility that other nonfriendly bacteria might be present as well.

Crusty, like you, I have consumed raw milk for years with no ill effects but after this episode I see more clearly why pasturization is important. Don't get me wrong, I think you should be able to weigh the risks and drink whatever you want but what I see today is a lot of people making claims about stuff and glossing over the risks. I think this is could be dangerous to others who may not question some of these claims.

For me, I don't think I'll ever consume any raw milk again because I really can't tell the difference between it and raw milk that has been pasteurized. If I were lactose intolerant and the lactobaccillus truly did allow me to continue to consume milk then I'd simply add the bacteria after it was pateurized.

I feel the same way towards salts. I'd rather know I have the right amount of nite's in it than take the gamble that the "natural" sea salt or "dehydrated organic celery juice" has the proper amount.
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Post by laripu » Wed Aug 01, 2012 22:30

Butterbean wrote:Good explanation and I think that is the reasoning behind making sweet milk. But it is my understanding that milk contains lots of bacteria both good and sometimes bad. Its also my understanding that lactobacillus comes from the gastrointestinal tract and is not produced in the mammary gland itself. With this belief I would think the presense of this bacteria would indicate there is a possibility that other nonfriendly bacteria might be present as well.

Crusty, like you, I have consumed raw milk for years with no ill effects but after this episode I see more clearly why pasturization is important. Don't get me wrong, I think you should be able to weigh the risks and drink whatever you want but what I see today is a lot of people making claims about stuff and glossing over the risks. I think this is could be dangerous to others who may not question some of these claims.

For me, I don't think I'll ever consume any raw milk again because I really can't tell the difference between it and raw milk that has been pasteurized. If I were lactose intolerant and the lactobaccillus truly did allow me to continue to consume milk then I'd simply add the bacteria after it was pateurized.

I feel the same way towards salts. I'd rather know I have the right amount of nite's in it than take the gamble that the "natural" sea salt or "dehydrated organic celery juice" has the proper amount.
Butterbean, I'm a newbie in charcuterie, so I defer to you and other experts here about nites. For cheesemaking, lightly pasteurized milk is ok (150F for 30 minutes is what I did). But homogenized/pasteurized milk is just terrible. I think the process modifies some proteins that are needed for the milk to properly form curds.

I can't help but think that any bad bacteria in raw milk come from poor handling. Containers can be contaminated, left uncovered, udders can be dirty, etc etc. I think under ideal conditions (healthy cow, udders cleaned with something antibacterial, containers sanitized and covered) raw milk would be fine. After all, the process evolved to feed calves, whose immune systems have not yet developed. And come to think of it, babies are breastfed. :smile:

Knowing that milk will be pasteurized, I think producers are more apt to be lax in their handling. (I've heard some horror stories; but I'll spare you. Trust me, you don't want to know.)

Adding lactobacillus to milk might be ok, but it would be easier to eat some yoghurt with live cultures, along with the milk. Also, enzymes would not be present in the pasteurized milk. I think they might also play a role... although the bacteria might introduce them too. Jeez Louise, there so much to learn here!
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Aug 01, 2012 23:49

Jeez Louise, there so much to learn here!
Isn't that the truth. Heck, I can't even seem to get on the learning curve.

I agree with you about the taste of whole milk and its healthy qualities and its usefulness. I couldn't agree more to your description of homogenized milk and lets not even mention that colored water they call skim or 2%. In my opinion, anyone who has never tasted the silky richness of "real" whole milk has been deprived of a wonderful experience. I think this may be akin to one never tasting a real unadulterated sausage but maybe I'm stretching things too far.

I can get all the whole milk I want for free so you may have to overlook my small bias on this subject.

Where I'm coming from is that while I know milk has fed mankind for centuries we have learned some things along the way. One is that raw milk can make you sick. But with the simple practice of using a double boiler and bringing it to the temp like you said it then gives you the assurance that it is safe and no harm has been done to the quality of the whole milk. I just see some similarities between this subject and the subject of salts and the controversies some people have about nites and such. Heck, some people would lead you to believe you should wear a hazmat suit when dealing with nites and if misinformation is continued to spread then we may find ourselves required to do so by law.
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Post by Cabonaia » Thu Aug 02, 2012 00:59

Butterbean, you nailed it. We will have to sneak our nites. I understand in old Italy they were scraped from urinal walls. Fact or fiction? Did Chuckwagon spread this one around?? All I know is that everybody from that era is DEAD!

Tonight I have 15 lbs. of pork butt to turn into something. My kids have already requested Mexican chorizo and smoked andouille. So I will do 5 lbs of each. Scratching my chin over item 3. Can't be anything dry cured because we are going to Yosemite next week and I don't trust my curing fridge to behave in my absence. Folks - any recommendations? Would love to use a recipe from this site. Something to roast over a fire.
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