I Have A Question
- sawhorseray
- Veteran
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 20:25
- Location: Elk Grove, CA
- Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 22:03
- Location: Wisconsin
Pork meat?
There are no "silly" questions on this forum. Ask your fellow members for tips and suggestions in making your own favorite sausage recipes. Ask them about their techniques and secrets too! There are folks on this site with incredible sausage-making savvy and they will share it... BUT you will have to ASK.
I noticed my local butcher has boneless country style pork ribs on sale. I read they come from the shoulder area of the pig. Will these work as well as pork shoulder for sausage or are they generally too lean?
I noticed my local butcher has boneless country style pork ribs on sale. I read they come from the shoulder area of the pig. Will these work as well as pork shoulder for sausage or are they generally too lean?
Last edited by Blackriver on Tue Jun 24, 2014 01:17, edited 1 time in total.
- Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Country style pork ribs are cut from different areas/places, some of them are very lean, but adding pork fat makes it very good for sausages.
I think the sausages taste best, when they are made from many different cuts.
Like adding back fat is better than having fat in the shoulder butts. (Or call it Boston cuts/roast?)
I think the sausages taste best, when they are made from many different cuts.
Like adding back fat is better than having fat in the shoulder butts. (Or call it Boston cuts/roast?)
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail.
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 22:03
- Location: Wisconsin
I Have A Question
There are no "silly" questions on this forum. Ask your fellow members for tips and suggestions in making your own favorite sausage recipes. Ask them about their techniques and secrets too! There are folks on this site with incredible sausage-making savvy and they will share it... BUT you will have to ASK.
I am not new to sausage making. Over the last 5 years I have made thousands of sausages, but I have run into a problem which baffles me. Last week I made a batch of Bratwurst. I have made the same recipe dozens of times. Pretty standard - 50% pork shoulder, 20% fatback, 30% lean veal, salt, pepper, mace, coriander, caraway,etc. Nothing exotic. Meat was near frozen & fatback completely frozen when I ground, All equipment kept in freezer. Tray for ground meat kept on ice. Identical procedure to what I have done before. Meat looked good when ground (ground twice through large & medium plate), no smearing. Links looked good when made. BUT, when I poached them, the casings completely disintegrated, and the meat crumbled. Next day I made a second batch with different casings (1st casings were from Butcher & Packer, 2nd were from SausageMaker.com) -- the same exact thing happened. I poach by putting the links in room temperature water and raising the temp to 165 degrees. Cook to 155 internal temp, chill then grill. Ten minutes in the water & the casings were in shreds. I am at a loss. The meat was new & stored correctly. The casings were new. Does anyone have any idea what the problem is?
Thanks.
I am not new to sausage making. Over the last 5 years I have made thousands of sausages, but I have run into a problem which baffles me. Last week I made a batch of Bratwurst. I have made the same recipe dozens of times. Pretty standard - 50% pork shoulder, 20% fatback, 30% lean veal, salt, pepper, mace, coriander, caraway,etc. Nothing exotic. Meat was near frozen & fatback completely frozen when I ground, All equipment kept in freezer. Tray for ground meat kept on ice. Identical procedure to what I have done before. Meat looked good when ground (ground twice through large & medium plate), no smearing. Links looked good when made. BUT, when I poached them, the casings completely disintegrated, and the meat crumbled. Next day I made a second batch with different casings (1st casings were from Butcher & Packer, 2nd were from SausageMaker.com) -- the same exact thing happened. I poach by putting the links in room temperature water and raising the temp to 165 degrees. Cook to 155 internal temp, chill then grill. Ten minutes in the water & the casings were in shreds. I am at a loss. The meat was new & stored correctly. The casings were new. Does anyone have any idea what the problem is?
Thanks.
Last edited by archieg on Mon Jun 23, 2014 06:49, edited 1 time in total.
I'm a rank newbie sausage maker, having only made one batch so far, just a few weeks ago. But since you had the same problem with casings from two different suppliers, it suggests the problem is likely not with the casings, unless it arises from how you stored them prior to use. It could also be a problem with how you prepared the casings, how you loaded them on the horn, or with some additive to your sausage recipe.
How old were the casings? (EDIT: Strike that. You said they were new.)
How did you store them prior to use?
How did you prepare them for use? Please supply detail, such as soak time, water temperature, additives in the water?
How do you load them on the stuffing horn?
Are there any additives in your sausage recipe other than normal spices, cures, meat, fat, and water? For example, anything acidic, vegetables?
I may not be able to identify the problem, but I figure anyone with the knowledge to do so will likely want to know the answers to some or all of the above questions.
Welcome to the forum!
How old were the casings? (EDIT: Strike that. You said they were new.)
How did you store them prior to use?
How did you prepare them for use? Please supply detail, such as soak time, water temperature, additives in the water?
How do you load them on the stuffing horn?
Are there any additives in your sausage recipe other than normal spices, cures, meat, fat, and water? For example, anything acidic, vegetables?
I may not be able to identify the problem, but I figure anyone with the knowledge to do so will likely want to know the answers to some or all of the above questions.
Welcome to the forum!
These are fresh bratwurst, uncured (i.e., no nitrites, just salt) & unsmoked.
Nothing is in them other than the meat, fatback, dry spices & a small amount of crushed ice.
The meat mixture is ground in a stand alone grinder (parts frozen), then mixed for 60 seconds in a stand-alone stand mixer with a paddle (parts frozen), and then placed into a LEM 15 lb vertical suffer (parts frozen). The meat is always very cold. The meat came out of the grinder in very firm "ropes," no mushiness.
The casings are stored, refrigerated, packed in kosher salt. They are soaked for 30 minutes in cold water, rinsed inside and out. No additives (vinegar or lemon juice) in the water.
The casings are attached to the stuffing tube using the "water bubble" method to help slide them on. The meat is immediately made into links, dried with a fan for 10 minutes, and then placed, on a metal rack, in the refrigerator. The links are cured at 40 degrees F overnight and then poached.
On the second batch which came out spoiled, I did not cure them overnight, but poached them immediately after stuffing. The casings still disintegrated.
As I said, I have made this same exact recipe of Bratwurst many times before, using the same exact procedures. That is why I am baffled.
Nothing is in them other than the meat, fatback, dry spices & a small amount of crushed ice.
The meat mixture is ground in a stand alone grinder (parts frozen), then mixed for 60 seconds in a stand-alone stand mixer with a paddle (parts frozen), and then placed into a LEM 15 lb vertical suffer (parts frozen). The meat is always very cold. The meat came out of the grinder in very firm "ropes," no mushiness.
The casings are stored, refrigerated, packed in kosher salt. They are soaked for 30 minutes in cold water, rinsed inside and out. No additives (vinegar or lemon juice) in the water.
The casings are attached to the stuffing tube using the "water bubble" method to help slide them on. The meat is immediately made into links, dried with a fan for 10 minutes, and then placed, on a metal rack, in the refrigerator. The links are cured at 40 degrees F overnight and then poached.
On the second batch which came out spoiled, I did not cure them overnight, but poached them immediately after stuffing. The casings still disintegrated.
As I said, I have made this same exact recipe of Bratwurst many times before, using the same exact procedures. That is why I am baffled.
That does seem perplexing. As I thought might be the case, I lack the knowledge and experience to help you. Most people here know far more than I do, so I don't think you'll have to wait too long for help.
If you have any left that you haven't poached yet, it might be instructive to try pan frying one and grilling one, just to see how the casing behaves when the sausage hasn't been poached.
One last thought... Are you poaching the sausages in plain water with no additives?
If you have any left that you haven't poached yet, it might be instructive to try pan frying one and grilling one, just to see how the casing behaves when the sausage hasn't been poached.
One last thought... Are you poaching the sausages in plain water with no additives?
The sausages are poached in plain tap water.
I do not have any of the sausage links left (they all got tossed), so I can not try frying one without poaching it first. At the time I ground the meat I did make a "patty" and fried that. It was fine.
Thanks for your replies. Hopefully, someone else will jump in.
I do not have any of the sausage links left (they all got tossed), so I can not try frying one without poaching it first. At the time I ground the meat I did make a "patty" and fried that. It was fine.
Thanks for your replies. Hopefully, someone else will jump in.
- Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Archieg wrote:
It is most important not to try to use any type of lubricant on the stuffing horn. Forget butter, oil, lard, etc. It will really cause problems later on.
There is only one reason I can think of that would cause the meat to crumble at this point and that is surpassing the I.T. of 170°F. whether in water or not. As this temperature is reached, the fat "breaks" and there`s no way to repair it. Why not try adding the proper amount of sodium nitrite to the recipe and "prep" cook them to 148°F. When you`re ready to eat them, finish cooking them on the grill.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
It sounds to me like the casings have been frozen at some point. Ice crystals, whether they form quickly or not, can still rupture the cells of the casing, rendering them useless, especially if the casing is re-frozen at some point.BUT, when I poached them, the casings completely disintegrated, and the meat crumbled.
It is most important not to try to use any type of lubricant on the stuffing horn. Forget butter, oil, lard, etc. It will really cause problems later on.
There is only one reason I can think of that would cause the meat to crumble at this point and that is surpassing the I.T. of 170°F. whether in water or not. As this temperature is reached, the fat "breaks" and there`s no way to repair it. Why not try adding the proper amount of sodium nitrite to the recipe and "prep" cook them to 148°F. When you`re ready to eat them, finish cooking them on the grill.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill!
Thanks for the reply Chuckwagon.
1) The casings were not frozen by me, but it is always possible they might have been before I got them, or possibly by someone else (they are stored at a different house from where I live.) I must say though that the Butcher & Packer casings looked very fresh and nice, no discoloration or anything.
2) I only use cold water to lube the stuffing tube, never anything else.
3) The sausages did not exceed 150-155 degrees IT. They were very well chilled throughout the production and then poached in 165 degree water (with a thermometer in it) to an internal temp of 150, checked every few minutes with an instant read thermometer. Of course, they never actually got to 150 degrees, because the casings all disintegrated.
4) One thing I failed to mention in the earlier posts was that, on the second batch of sausages, I took some of the loose ground meat, rolled it into a sausage "shape," wrapped it in Saran Wrap and poached it. It came out fine. I then stuffed the meat in the casings, and when I poached the links, the casings disintegrated!
4) I don't understand why I would want to use nitrites. I am not opposed to them at all, but I only use them when cold-smoking or aging wursts or salamis. These are fresh bratwurst and do not require nitrites.
5) One thing though, when speaking of nitrites, in trying to figure out what the problem is, it occurred to me that possibly there might be some type of bacteriological infection in the casings, or on some of the machinery. I try to be very clean, but one can never be 100 percent certain. I do not know enough about the effect of harmful micro-organisms to know if this could be the problem or not.
That's all I can think of. Thanks again.
1) The casings were not frozen by me, but it is always possible they might have been before I got them, or possibly by someone else (they are stored at a different house from where I live.) I must say though that the Butcher & Packer casings looked very fresh and nice, no discoloration or anything.
2) I only use cold water to lube the stuffing tube, never anything else.
3) The sausages did not exceed 150-155 degrees IT. They were very well chilled throughout the production and then poached in 165 degree water (with a thermometer in it) to an internal temp of 150, checked every few minutes with an instant read thermometer. Of course, they never actually got to 150 degrees, because the casings all disintegrated.
4) One thing I failed to mention in the earlier posts was that, on the second batch of sausages, I took some of the loose ground meat, rolled it into a sausage "shape," wrapped it in Saran Wrap and poached it. It came out fine. I then stuffed the meat in the casings, and when I poached the links, the casings disintegrated!
4) I don't understand why I would want to use nitrites. I am not opposed to them at all, but I only use them when cold-smoking or aging wursts or salamis. These are fresh bratwurst and do not require nitrites.
5) One thing though, when speaking of nitrites, in trying to figure out what the problem is, it occurred to me that possibly there might be some type of bacteriological infection in the casings, or on some of the machinery. I try to be very clean, but one can never be 100 percent certain. I do not know enough about the effect of harmful micro-organisms to know if this could be the problem or not.
That's all I can think of. Thanks again.