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redzed
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Post by redzed » Wed Feb 01, 2017 07:04

Actually it is difficult to buy the correct milk powder in grocery stores in Canada. What they sell is instant skim milk in granules. What we need is non instant skim milk powder in powder form, and its tough to find in smaller quantities. I used to get it at the Bulk Barn, but they recently stopped stocking it. There are wholesalers selling it in 50lb bags, but that's for the commercial guys.
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Feb 01, 2017 13:21

Why does it have to be in powder form? I've used the correct powder before but have gone back to using the granules and just mix it with the ice water. Also in the hispanic section they carry a buttermilk powder I have used as well. All seem to work good.
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Post by Bob K » Wed Feb 01, 2017 13:52

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Post by Cdub » Wed Feb 01, 2017 17:42

I read the post on milk and it seemed to end with no final decision on whether store bought milk powder is what is recommended?
In the past i have always bought Soy Protein or have also used Rusk (but not for quite a while)
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Feb 01, 2017 23:27

No harm in trying some. I've had good results using it and use it more than soy. If you put it in a blender you can make it into a fine powder in just a few seconds. It can be whisked into a slurry with some effort.

Didn't Mr. Kutas also started the Sausage Maker store didn't he? And they sell milk powder. If memory serves me correctly TSM also invented Fermento. I know GM always suggests using genuine GM parts. Just saying.

A good question would be why wouldn't it work?
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Post by Cdub » Thu Feb 02, 2017 04:19

The sausage maker does have milk powder but they don't export it to Canada.
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Post by redzed » Thu Feb 02, 2017 05:12

Non fat dry milk powder (USA) and skim milk powder (Canada) and not the instant kind, are the additives used by the meat industry. My father who worked at a sausage plant in the early 1960's used it then, so it predates The Sausagemaker. The recipes in the Rytek Kutas book prescribe very generous amounts of it. But if you read his book in its entirety, especially the last section where he describes his experience in operating a sausage shop, profit was important and meat extenders such as soy and milk powders affected the bottom line. The difference between the instant and the non instant variety is in the way it's made. Instant will dissolve immediately in cold water, whereas the non istant needs as much as 8 hours to dissolve entirely. The non-instant is dried at a much higher temperature and making it less soluble and because of that process it holds water better, acts as a binder and gives the sausage a smoother and softer mouthfeel. Using instant milk will do very little more than water as the milk solids are denatured.

Today the non instant variety is used mainly by the food industry, in baking, meats, confectionery and so on. Read some labels on packaged products and you will soon run across "milk solids". Instant is available to the consumer in all grocery stores.

I the US, the cheapest place to order NFDM is Butcher and Packer. In Canada you can buy it at Canada Compound in large amounts, or in health food stores at ridiculous prices. I will make some enquiries over the next few days and see what I can find.
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Post by martin » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:27

Hi I was hevy user Non Fat dry milk , and soy protein concentrate, also i try phosphates .
But I watched the short movie on YouTube like older butcher master ( polish guy from canada )prep copa , or cut ham , hi explaining in cuple words. , thats when hi works in plant they use fillers and phosphates bycauze they care about biznes , and they put too sausage skin , fats , and everything from hog without bones and tail and puts a lots of water so that's why they use binders , filers and phosphates . Hi seed when you make sausage in home from good quality of meats you dont need absolutely use fillers , you can make plump and tasty sausage withaout any fillers , I spoke with one butcher from Poland , hi has small biznes and hi sold products to polish deli , hi dont use any binders an fillers an people love his sausages , they very tasty , even hi makes sausage for bbq and problem with shrinking or too much drying his sausages on the grill not exist .So i start thinking ( better late than never) when i put fillers and binders to my home made sausage this is not organic or quality and I cheet myself and my family.
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Post by Cdub » Mon Apr 03, 2017 05:11

Different type of sausage but I made Rytek,s bratwurst that I have made many times. Usually I follow with a few small changes but have always just ground and mixed, this time I put 1/3 of mix into the food processor and the result was a completely different textured sausage. The bind was very much like a commercial brat, even the colour was close as it was almost white when cooked. I now think another tool is needed, a large food processor as a buffalo chopper is not in the budget.
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Post by fatboyz » Mon Apr 03, 2017 14:18

Butcher and Packers in Edmonton have what they call Premium H Binder (Milk).
Here is a link.
http://www.butchersandpackers.com/binde ... lk?id=2027
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Post by Cdub » Mon Apr 03, 2017 21:10

Thanks i will order some and try.
Also thanks for info regarding emulsifying as the Brats i made were the best i have made and the texture and bind was near perfect (for me)
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Post by redzed » Thu Apr 06, 2017 18:28

I contacted Butchers & Packers Supply in Edmonton and requested a spec sheet or information as to the ingredients in the product Premium H Binder (Milk).

I was not very happy with the response, but learned that it is whey protein powder and the recommended use is 18g per kilogram. Other sources state that it is added at 5.0-20.0 g per 1 kg of salami, so their recommendation is in the upper limits. Whey protein adds to the flavor of dried salami products and is the water phase of milk once casein has been removed. Its flavor is generally equivalent to that of meat and according to Gerhard Feiner, it's used in high quality salami. It is also applied in emulsified products. Most commonly, whey protein concentrates of around 35% protein are used in meat products. But I was not provided with the specific content of the protein in Premium H Binder.
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Post by fatboyz » Sun Apr 09, 2017 15:40

Red, do you think whey powder would be a good substitute? I went to bulk barn in Edmonton and they only had non instant buttermilk powder. I did pick some up. Any thoughts on using it at the same rate as NFDM?
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Post by redzed » Sun Apr 09, 2017 19:41

Gerhard Feiner in his recent book on salami production, rates whey powder, is the superior additive to dry cured cured products. No mention of buttermilk powder, but if it's the non instant type it should work well. However, the consensus seems to be that the most efficient product to use, if you want a binder, is soy protein. Just don't use the amounts of binder (aka meat-extender) recommended in the Rytek Kutas and other commercial recipes.
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Post by fatboyz » Mon Apr 10, 2017 02:01

Thanks RED. I stopped at Halfords while in Edm. today and got some soy protein. So I now have soy protein and non instant dry buttermilk powder. Would I use the soy protein in the same amounts as NFDM in a specific recipe? I have never used any binder before other than in pre made individual mixes.
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