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Hey all, I have been doin charcuterie and fermenting sausages for awhile. I'm new to the chamber and mold stuff, I follow ruhlmans book, and I'm running 55 degrees f and 65-70 percent humidity with a circulating fan everything set up perfect but I cut into one of my soppresata links and it didn't have that funk smell like salami does. It smells acidic and my ph is 4.8-5 spot on. Maybe age for then 4 weeks? I'm using bacto frm 52, dq number 2, dextrose, and prime cuts of pig. I tried to introduce mold 600 and start mold to balance out levels but mold won't grow on anything. Please let me know thanks guys.
Chuckwagon, hey man I wrote a question on a blog ! Thanks
Salami problems
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Saltedtyme30
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Salami problems
Last edited by Saltedtyme30 on Mon Dec 14, 2015 17:34, edited 2 times in total.
Philip Anthony
Welcome to the WD forum Salty!
Good question, but we need more info: How long has the soppressata been curing? What was the starting pH and the ending pH before you transferred it into the curing chamber? As far as the mould, not growing, increase the humidity to around 80%. Your setting of 65-70% might be OK in the latter stages of drying, but a bit too low at the start. You also mention your circulating fan. How often is it running and is it aimed directly at the sausages? It may be too much velocity in the chamber. And you didn't smoke the sausage by any chance did you? Let us know and we'll try to solve the puzzle.
redzed
Good question, but we need more info: How long has the soppressata been curing? What was the starting pH and the ending pH before you transferred it into the curing chamber? As far as the mould, not growing, increase the humidity to around 80%. Your setting of 65-70% might be OK in the latter stages of drying, but a bit too low at the start. You also mention your circulating fan. How often is it running and is it aimed directly at the sausages? It may be too much velocity in the chamber. And you didn't smoke the sausage by any chance did you? Let us know and we'll try to solve the puzzle.
redzed
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Saltedtyme30
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redzed, I run a small circulating fan from a computer. It's been curing 4 weeks and everything looks well but don't have the taste it should. I never tested the started ph but the ph now is spot on. I ferment room temp for 12-16 hrs and put into chamber after its brightened ad awake. Following the ruhlman book by the letter. If I bump up the humidity in these later stages will it hurt ? And I'll introduce mold 600 as soon as I put up humidity. Thanks
Philip Anthony
Philip-
If you want to get the mold to grow you will need to up the humidity to around 80% and shut off the fan. 80% now will not hurt your sausage, to be honest my chamber never gets below 80% . Also running a fan full time will more than likely cause case hardening.
Did you use the soppressata recipe from Charcuterie? It contains milk powder and wine, those can also affect the taste.
There is a good online article on fermented sausages here :
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... ed-sausage
If you scroll down to the Salami making process it gives you a time tested chart of temps and humidity levels.
There is also a section about surface molds, optimal temps, humidity etc.
If you want to get the mold to grow you will need to up the humidity to around 80% and shut off the fan. 80% now will not hurt your sausage, to be honest my chamber never gets below 80% . Also running a fan full time will more than likely cause case hardening.
Did you use the soppressata recipe from Charcuterie? It contains milk powder and wine, those can also affect the taste.
There is a good online article on fermented sausages here :
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... ed-sausage
If you scroll down to the Salami making process it gives you a time tested chart of temps and humidity levels.
There is also a section about surface molds, optimal temps, humidity etc.
Hey Philip, just to add to what Bob wrote, maybe set the circulating fan on a timer to let it run for half an hour a couple of times a day and that should be enough. Also not only spray the sausages with the mould starter, but also give the inside of the chamber a few squirts. After a period of time and a few loads of product, there will be enough mould spores in there and you won't have to inoculate the sausages with the starter any longer.
I also had one incidence where my salami failed to grow mould, even though the chamber was full of mouldy products. And that could be due to failed fermentation and spoilage bacteria taking over or antibiotics in the meat.
What I would do is start another batch, keep the meat very cold or semi frozen when grinding and preparing. You really have to be careful to avoid fat smearing. And 12-16 hours fermentation might not have been enough. The pH reading you took after 4 weeks is of little significance in determining what happened during fermentation. Which starter cuture did you use?
I also had one incidence where my salami failed to grow mould, even though the chamber was full of mouldy products. And that could be due to failed fermentation and spoilage bacteria taking over or antibiotics in the meat.
What I would do is start another batch, keep the meat very cold or semi frozen when grinding and preparing. You really have to be careful to avoid fat smearing. And 12-16 hours fermentation might not have been enough. The pH reading you took after 4 weeks is of little significance in determining what happened during fermentation. Which starter cuture did you use?
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Saltedtyme30
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Saltedtyme30
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Saltedtyme30
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Nice looking chamber Philip!
Looks like you cut out the bottom of the freezer section? so why not hang the salamis from the top shelf. This would keep them further away from the air flow from the dehumidifier? and the mist from the humidifier.
That would certainly help with mold growth and other problems/issues.
Looks like you cut out the bottom of the freezer section? so why not hang the salamis from the top shelf. This would keep them further away from the air flow from the dehumidifier? and the mist from the humidifier.
That would certainly help with mold growth and other problems/issues.
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Saltedtyme30
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I just figured since it gets cold quick in that area and I hang the links into the bottom it might have uneven curing- the fan turns on up there in the freezer area and gets to 50 quick and then has to even out the fridge. Takes no time but there is a good 5 minutes that it's low up there. I see white spots of mold as of today after taking advice and bumping up humidity to 80 and also putting mold 600 in the water solution I pour into my humidifier. The bresaola in back is full of mold and I see a lot of links in other chambers with no mold and some do. I would hate to throw it all out over bacteria issues but it looks and smells fine just doesn't have the funk flavor. Maybe has to mature more ? I spent a lot of time and money on this chamber and meat but I am use to curing meat in a huge walk in controlled, not a fridge. But I was upset when I tasted the soppa and was missing the aged funk flavor. Mold is growing around the tops and around the string that is trussed but not covering it fully. But the bacto frm 52 should be fighting off the bad mold and the dq 2 I would assume. I don't know I have 12 different salamis in here figuring it would be the same as my other chamber in an actual restaurant. Thanks guys you've been helpful more than ever !
Philip Anthony
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Saltedtyme30
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Salami problems
Hey guys I have been making salami for a little while my family did it back in Italy and your probably wondering why on here asking questions ? Well I done have Italy humidity and caves lol any way, I built a nice chamber- hum1 controller for humidifier and de humidifier, a fridge cut out and wired right. Fridge runs at 54f and 75-80 humidity. I just harvested some soppa and some Tuscan salami I made out of ruhlmans book; I didn't get mold because I didn't incubate properly with humidity- but a lot of people said not to worry. I try the meat and it doesn't have that funk salami aged deep taste. I taste acidity, and herbs. I don't smell that awesome funk when I smell the salami- I did a second batch run and incubated 36hrs 85f -90 and 90-100 rh and I had my new batch covered in mold the following days: I'm on day 4 and it's almost fully covered in mold only using frm-52 no spray or 600. I have read 17 books and traveled to learn more but this batch pissed me off. The meat I get is Duroc pork, beautiful pork back fat, grounded partially frozen mixed well culture added last tubed incubated and hung in chamber. Chamber smells acidic like the way it taste so I washed it out tonight and added some baking soda but I just can't get the nice aged meat taste. My oh is on the money I follow the books to the wire. Maybe I just suck I dunno lol I have cooked all over even at the French laundry with Thomas Keller and this is by far the most tricky I have ever dealt with ! Thanks guy. I think I may have posted somewhat the same here but I harvested the batch and never aged.
Philip Anthony
Hi Philip,
I took a look at the Ruhlman/Polcyn recipe for soppressata in their first book, and if you followed it to "to the wire" as you say, it's easy to see why your "soppa" turned out the way it did. The recipe asks for 30 grams of dextrose for a 5lb batch, then recommends a high temp ferment with F-RM-52. Then there is the 70g of non-fat milk which contains lactose which will also ferment increasing the acidity even more. If you followed that recipe and added those amounts you might as well go suck on a lemon!
To begin with, Bactoferm F-RM-52 is not meant to be used for the mild flavoured salami products with southern European nuances. It is better suited for products like cervelat, summer sausage and American pepperone. You should be using a starter culture prepared for traditional fermented sausages such as T-SPX, Bitec LM 1, Texel SA-301, or better yet, B-LC 007 which has added protection against listeria. In using these cultures you ferment at a temp of 70-73F and don't let your pH drop below 5, (5.2 being the target). Once you are under 5 your salami will start having a sour taste. I would also like to point out that if you are serious about making fermented sausages, you need to invest in a pH meter which will make it possible to understand and know what is happening to your meat as it ferments and let you make the appropriate adjustments in culture strains, sugar amounts and temperature.
Then there is the question of how much sugar? Ruhlman's 30g of dextrose for 5lbs works out to 1.32% of the total meat block. (I won't even start with the lactose calculation) The correct amount to use is 3 to 5 grams (.3% to .5%) per 1kg of meat. Ruhlman's amounts therefore are 4 times the proper amount even without the lactose! Feodor Toldra, probably the best authority of fermented meats, wrote that for every 1 gram of dextrose, the pH will drop by .3 of a point. Taking that into account, it means that if your starting pH is in the 5.8 to 5.9 range, 3 grams of dextrose should do the trick.
In using the proper cultures and slower, cooler fermentation, you will be giving the cultures more time to develop flavours and colour. The salami will have only a hint of acidity and old world taste and aroma. With the added flavours from surface mould you should achieve that "funk" you are looking for. The cultures I listed above are all composed of lactobaccili which will form the texture and increase the acidity of the meat to a safe level for drying, and staphyllococci which develop the colour and flavour.
So don't despair, try again and I'm sure you will eventually be famous for for your salami. Take a look at Stan Marianski's summary of starter cultures here http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... e/cultures
Read the Bactoferm manual here http://www.google.ca/url?....90790515,d.cGU
And with the cold weather and long evenings upon us you can start reading the best compendium available on fermented sausages. It's available for free download here:
https://www.academia.edu/...eat_and_poultry
I took a look at the Ruhlman/Polcyn recipe for soppressata in their first book, and if you followed it to "to the wire" as you say, it's easy to see why your "soppa" turned out the way it did. The recipe asks for 30 grams of dextrose for a 5lb batch, then recommends a high temp ferment with F-RM-52. Then there is the 70g of non-fat milk which contains lactose which will also ferment increasing the acidity even more. If you followed that recipe and added those amounts you might as well go suck on a lemon!
To begin with, Bactoferm F-RM-52 is not meant to be used for the mild flavoured salami products with southern European nuances. It is better suited for products like cervelat, summer sausage and American pepperone. You should be using a starter culture prepared for traditional fermented sausages such as T-SPX, Bitec LM 1, Texel SA-301, or better yet, B-LC 007 which has added protection against listeria. In using these cultures you ferment at a temp of 70-73F and don't let your pH drop below 5, (5.2 being the target). Once you are under 5 your salami will start having a sour taste. I would also like to point out that if you are serious about making fermented sausages, you need to invest in a pH meter which will make it possible to understand and know what is happening to your meat as it ferments and let you make the appropriate adjustments in culture strains, sugar amounts and temperature.
Then there is the question of how much sugar? Ruhlman's 30g of dextrose for 5lbs works out to 1.32% of the total meat block. (I won't even start with the lactose calculation) The correct amount to use is 3 to 5 grams (.3% to .5%) per 1kg of meat. Ruhlman's amounts therefore are 4 times the proper amount even without the lactose! Feodor Toldra, probably the best authority of fermented meats, wrote that for every 1 gram of dextrose, the pH will drop by .3 of a point. Taking that into account, it means that if your starting pH is in the 5.8 to 5.9 range, 3 grams of dextrose should do the trick.
In using the proper cultures and slower, cooler fermentation, you will be giving the cultures more time to develop flavours and colour. The salami will have only a hint of acidity and old world taste and aroma. With the added flavours from surface mould you should achieve that "funk" you are looking for. The cultures I listed above are all composed of lactobaccili which will form the texture and increase the acidity of the meat to a safe level for drying, and staphyllococci which develop the colour and flavour.
So don't despair, try again and I'm sure you will eventually be famous for for your salami. Take a look at Stan Marianski's summary of starter cultures here http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... e/cultures
Read the Bactoferm manual here http://www.google.ca/url?....90790515,d.cGU
And with the cold weather and long evenings upon us you can start reading the best compendium available on fermented sausages. It's available for free download here:
https://www.academia.edu/...eat_and_poultry
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Saltedtyme30
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The recipe for Soppressata Roman-Style on p.143 of Salumi asks for 9g. of dextrose for 5lbs, which is spot on, and there is no milk powder. Quite a difference from the first book! As to the cultures, the Ruhlman/Polcyn team once again recommends Bactoferm F-RM-52 for all the salami recipes in the second volume as well. And I suspect the main reason for that is that they are aiming at people who do not check or even understand pH levels. If you use Bactoferm F-RM-52 and ferment at a high temp you will almost certainly acidify the meat to a pH of under 5, which is considered as the safe level by the authors. But you won't know what the salami will taste like until you cut into if you did not record the pH. And inasmuch as Ruhlman waxes on about the wonderful products he tasted in Italy, you will not come close to them using the fast and high acidifier F-RM-52. Other scientific literature considers a pH of <5.3 as the safe level, and anything <5.0 as too sour.Saltedtyme30 wrote:Thank you so much @red his second book is 11 grams and way different. I have tspx culture I'm doing a 50 pb batch tonight and fermenting for 36 hrs then in th chamber. Hopefully turns out the way it should. What's the best starter for salami?
Best starter for salami? If you are looking for a mild traditional flavour, anyone of the ones I listed in my previous post will work. B-LC 007 produces similar results to T-SPX and, according to the manufacturer, will almost totally eliminate the possibility of listeria monocytogenes. But in the end you will need to experiment and find the culture that suits your personal tastes.
Can I ask why you are fermenting for 36 hours with T-SPX? And at what temperature and humidity? What is the starting pH of your meat?
