Help with casings

NorthFork
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Help with casings

Post by NorthFork » Fri Apr 17, 2015 16:58

I just finished a chub of ham loaf (for lack of an official name) and the casings I am using will not allow the moisture out of the casing as it is smoked and poached. The casings retain all of the liquid throughout the process. This is the second time I have used these casings with the same results both times. The first time I poached after smoking and carelessly inserted a temp probe without noticing the liquid filled and pressurized casing-the result was not pretty! This time I bagged the chub (zip lock bag) and simply processed it at 165° F for 8 hours to assure a properly cooked product. The end result is excellent but it doesn't seem to me that the casings should retain the liquid to this degree, especially under pressure. I should add that the casings did allow the smoke to penetrate well and the sausage was firm and about the right moisture content after cutting.

The casings are Sausage Maker Product number 24300 ( www.sausagemaker.com/24300cookedsalamic ... 888mm.aspx ), I have used some of their smaller Casings in the past with no problem.

The chub after cooling over night:Image

Closeup of the liquid at the ends of the casing:Image

Image

Any thoughts or help would be appreciated-
Thanks
Pat
Last edited by NorthFork on Fri Apr 17, 2015 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rgauthier20420 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 17:56

Ok. So my first question....why are you getting liquid inside of the casing if you're only cooking at 165? You should have zero fat out if you're slow cooking at that temperature so there should be no liquid inside of the casing regardless. Can you let us know a recipe or anything like that? Might be helpful.
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Post by Bob K » Fri Apr 17, 2015 18:19

165f for 8 hours does seem like a long time What was your target temp? Maybe you are over cooking.
Also its easy to retain moisture with fibrous casings. They should be well "pricked" especially at the ends...I use one of those three prong things. Re-prick if necessary after cooking/smoking.

Also if the Pork you used had "added" water/etc that could be the cause.
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Post by NorthFork » Fri Apr 17, 2015 21:50

Thanks for the replies-

rgauthier-It's a very simple recipe-80% fresh ham cut into about 1 in. squares and around 20% rougher cuts(CL. 3 type meat, I guess)-in this case it was shank, diced small and emusified. Cured with .2% Cure #1, 1.8% salt and spiced with only blk pepper and sugar(.2 and .25% respectively). I mix the dry ingredients well in the meat and cure for 72 hours and mix again and stuff into the casings. Smoked at 130° F for 6 to 8 hours and then poach. I add water to the mix before stuffing just to loosen it up so it slides through the stuffer easier. Just a very simple and plain sausage that is great as a snack or on a sandwich.

Bob-Since I had such a disaster with my first attempt with these casings I decided to process it sous vide style and not poke it with a probe. It was actually cooked at 150° for 7 hours and then raised to 165° for the last hour. We butchered this hog ourselves(a large brood sow that had developed some arthritis in a front shoulder but had been on a free range pasture for some time) so we want to be sure and get the meat up around 160 to be safe. The cooked product is great, it is just the liquid containment that confuses me. I will try pricking well the next time, I usually only prick them if I have air bubbles but with these casings I really pack it tight and have had no problem with air in the product.

There was an unexpected bonus-the liquid contained in the casing is about the best "ham" base I have ever tasted(bean soup tomorrow!).

Thanks for the help guys-
Pat
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Post by StefanS » Sat Apr 18, 2015 02:02

Hi NorthFork.
Your recipe is VERY CLOSE to polish kielbasa Szynkowa. I my opinion your problem is not with casings. It is with process. From Your post:
diced small and emulsified (how much water?) -then you made -
I add water to the mix before stuffing just to loosen it up so it slides through the stuffer easier -( how much water?)
Then - It was actually cooked at 150° for 7 hours and then raised to 165° for the last hour. - (what was the purpose to cook it soooo long?) - in your post - so we want to be sure and get the meat up around 160 to be safe - you have reached that temp much, much earlier.
in that long cooking you just got out any liquid (water, meat juice) from meat.
By the way - I agree that that liquid(jelly if you keep it in refrigerator) is whole essence of that "ham loaf" (There was an unexpected bonus-the liquid contained in the casing is about the best "ham" base I have ever tasted(bean soup tomorrow!).
but your meat will be on dried side and not juicy.
Also - to get 160 F inside meat in that casing (3 3/8) you need app. 1.30 min. max. ( or less like in your case to keep it in smoker for 6 to 8 hours with temp. of 150F).
Summary in my opinion - too much water on beginning and over cooked.
My advice - next process keep close to described in post about Ham Kielbasa (yours recipe is very close to it - differences only in ingredients).
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Post by NorthFork » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:44

Hi StefanS-yes it is very close to your kielbasa Szynkowa recipe. The recipe and process that I used is not really my creation, a couple of years ago I tried the Marianski recipe for "Ham Sausage" which appears to be a version of the recipe and process that you posted. The Marianski recipe calls for .2% coriander(2g/K meat) which we found to be over spiced for us. I tried it again but dropped the coriander and nutmeg to get a starting point and we liked it so well that I kept using the simple recipe. I do plan on trying your recipe in the near future as the spice ratios appear to more to our taste-and by the way, those are beautiful sausages that you posted, I admire your work.

The total meat weight of this batch was 2.146K and I used perhaps a 1/2 of ice water(no more than that) prior to stuffing. I have had poor success using the food processor for emulsifying the meat so I use essentially the same method that you posted, I dice the frozen meat before curing and then after curing I place it single layer on sheet and put it in the freezer for a few minutes and then grind through a 7mm plate, if it softens much I will put it back in the freezer for about 5 min and then grind twice through a 3mm plate. I add no water at this stage. I have used this method for making hot dogs and franks and it has worked very well for me.

I'm sure that I did , in fact overcook the chub but the meat is still quite moist and of good texture. On my first attempt with these casings I poached in a normal manner, starting with cold water (I usually let the sausage rest in the fridge overnight after smoking so they are cold to start with) and gradually raising the temp (over a period of about an hour or maybe a bit more) until I have a water temp of 170° to 175° and poach until I hit the target temp (in this case 160°), this took about 1 to 1 1/2 hours as I recall. In that case I had the same development of water in the casing but I foolishly inserted a temp probe (after about an hour of cooking at the 175° water temp. The result was an instant stream of very hot liquid that reached the ceiling and covered most of the cabinets above the range and the floor as well(Note to self-Always check casing for pressure before inserting probe!). Following this fiasco I decided to try the sous vide method and not use a temp probe. In this last case the liquid had actually started to form in the smoker and was fully developed in the casing by the time my water temp had reached the 150° mark. I can only suppose that none of the liquid that normally evaporates during smoking and/or poaching is escaping the casing. I will try pricking the casing thoroughly (as Bob suggested) on my next attempt.

Thank you for your help
Pat
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Post by Bob K » Sat Apr 18, 2015 15:22

Pat Did you mean 1/2 cup water?
NorthFork wrote:The total meat weight of this batch was 2.146K and I used perhaps a 1/2 of ice water(no more than that)
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Post by NorthFork » Sat Apr 18, 2015 17:28

Correct Bob-thanks for catching that-I am a one finger typist so occasionally my mind outruns my finger and I skip a word or two----
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Post by StefanS » Sat Apr 18, 2015 22:20

Hello Pat.
First - Thank You for admiring my Ham Kielbasa. Friends of mine always asking - when i'm going to make a new budge of it.
Secondary - I'm using very often the same casings (same distributor, same number) to make Ham Kielbasa. Never have had any problem with them.
Again - after reading your posts - my opinion - water you have added to meat before stuffing was not absorbed by it, so simply it was just meat mixed with water. Plus a very long time of poaching and you got your result. but I'm sure next time you will make a much better. It is worth to try because that kind of kielbasa has special taste.
If you WILL TRY to do the recipe - let me know so I will help you make a similar Ham Kielbasa.
Greatings Stefan
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Post by NorthFork » Sun Apr 19, 2015 13:02

Thanks again Stefan,
I do plan on making your recipe and will follow your method exactly. Do you prick these casings after stuffing?

You mention that perhaps the water is not fully absorbed by the meat in my sausage. I went back and reviewed your post on your Ham Sausage again and am now wondering if it would help if I added the water as you do, in the final grind for emulsifying the Cl. 3 meat. I have not done this in the past, just worked the water into the meat when I combined the two (cubed and emulsified) meats together and worked them until very sticky. I will certainly try that on the next batch I do(which may be a while as we have our spring turkey season in progress, spring bear season and in just a week or so the Spring Chinook will be in our rivers-busy fun time for me).

Before I used these casings I used the smaller 3 inch Mahogany casings from the same supplier and did not run into this problem, doing everything the same way-that is why it surprised me to bump into this problem with these casings.

Thank you for your help, I will be trying your recipe as soon as I am home for more than a day at a time.

Pat
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Post by StefanS » Tue Apr 21, 2015 01:19

Hello Pat.
As I see you going to be really busy, but please - keep in mind that bears are sometimes a very danger animals ( :lol: ), I saw once one in Zoo so I know (sorry but I'm a little kidding).and no offence.
About pricking - yes - I do sometimes but only when I see a air bubble under casing so I'm using a sawing needle to prick it.
Emulsifying Cl. 3 with water will give you a very good bonding staff for cubed ham meat. Also during a mixing Cl. 3 with water I'm adding a spices - it gives you a little better distribution them thru whole meat after mixing ham cubes and Cl. 3.
Hopefully I wish you a really good time caching that beautiful fish.
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Post by NorthFork » Wed Apr 22, 2015 15:45

Stefan,

Wind is blowing and not a good day to be hunting or fishing so I stayed home to catch up on a few things. I'll try mixing the spices with the water when emulsifying. Like you, I have always just pricked casings when I see an air bubble, whether it is in the larger casings or the smaller natural casings.

Certainly no offense taken on your comment, you can not be over cautious when around wild animals. I have taken many animals with rifle, bow and also black powder weapons and have had a few surprises-the bear in the picture(my spring bear in 2014) decided to come to life when I was about 10 feet from him-a quick shot to the neck took care of it but it does get your blood pumping! He was an exceptional animal, only 7 years old but weighed in at over 400 lbs.
Image

The spring salmon are also a lot of fun and very good eating (great fresh or smoked). Here is one my wife caught last year--
Image

I am fortunate to live in an area where we have all of this at our fingertips-I can't imagine not being able to enjoy the outdoors anytime I want too---

Thanks again for your advise-
Pat
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Post by redzed » Thu Apr 23, 2015 08:30

Hey Pat you are one lucky guy! Aint no place better than the Pacific Nortwest! What did you do with the bear meat? I have never eaten bear but if the opportunity was there I certainly would. What are the predictions for the salmon run in your area this season?
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Post by NorthFork » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:56

Hi redzed,
Yes, I am one of the fortunate ones to live in this wonderful area, my grandparents homesteaded about 30 miles from where I live today so it is really "Home" to me.

We made sausage out of most of this bear, mostly "Polish Hot Smoked" sausage with little deviation from the Marianski recipe(one of our favorites). This particular bear was very good, he was fresh from his winter den and had not had time to pick up any "odd" tastes from his diet, he was also a high country bear and most of their diet tends to be grasses and sprouts early in the spring, the low country bears tend to get on winter kill early and this will really mess them up for table-fare. This guy hadn't even got into the wild onions yet. You normally know when you walk up to a bear if he will be good eating or not-if they smell foul or like onions that is usually what they will taste like. With this one the meat (and blood) had no discernible odor, even while cooking-he made great sausage. If you have the opportunity to try some bear meat I certainly would not pass on it-and if by chance you should taste some that is not good, don't blame it on bear meat in general, it is most likely just not a good bear for the table.

Our salmon run is looking very good, so far. We are at the mercy of 450 miles of the Snake and Columbia rivers with their extremely heavy fishing pressure (kind of the last in line) so we never really know what we have until they get here. The fish counts at the down river dams (all 8 of them) are looking good so we should have a good fishery. The first fish are here now but good numbers are still a week or so away. We really like the Springers, they are a very fast traveling fish (they can actually travel that 450 miles in less than two weeks) so they don't degrade and loose much fat content at all. We sometimes go downriver and meet them coming up but this year I just have too much going on to get away.

Pat
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Post by Pete » Fri Apr 24, 2015 01:57

Like ++ the hunting pic. NorthFork - rough country to be walking/hunting/recovering meat in. Reminds me of some of our Sambar deer hunting bush in AUS.

Brown bear ? looks brown. :smile:

They must eat OK if you made sausage from it, nice to utilise what we take.
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