Andouille with cubed Ham

Reggie
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Andouille with cubed Ham

Post by Reggie » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:30

I have a frozen 10 lb. Shank Portion Ham that I would like to "cube up" and substitute for the fresh cubed shoulder in one of Len Poli's Andouille formulations. He actually has 2 recipes and I would like to use the spice profile from the first Recipe and apply it to the 2nd recipe - which calls for 1 teaspoon of prague powder for 5 pounds of meat. So, if bind 4 pounds of cubed ham with 1 pound of meat paste that is made with 1 teaspoon of Prague Powder, will I have enough cure....assuming I bring the internal temperature up to 150 degrees at the end of the smoking process? Also, I am thinking about using 2.5" cellulose casings to stuff this. Is there any downside to using cellulose instead of natural hog casings? Thank you in advance!

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Post by Butterbean » Thu Jan 14, 2016 16:53

I'm not sure I'm following you when you say cubed ham. Is this cubed cured ham? Do you really mean 1 tsp of cure 1 in 1 lb of mince?

If I were making it with fresh meat, I would chunk the meat up and salt and cure it before grinding. Then treat each separately then combine before stuffing.
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Post by Reggie » Thu Jan 14, 2016 21:55

Butterbean wrote:I'm not sure I'm following you when you say cubed ham. Is this cubed cured ham? Do you really mean 1 tsp of cure 1 in 1 lb of mince?

If I were making it with fresh meat, I would chunk the meat up and salt and cure it before grinding. Then treat each separately then combine before stuffing.
This is a cured ham (albeit, a cheap one) that I could eat w/o cooking if I wanted to. So I'm asking essentially, should I still treat 1 pound of meat paste.....that will essentially be used to bind 4 pounds of cured ham...with 1 full teaspoon of prague powder. Or, should I consider that cure has already been applied to the store bought ham, and reduce the 1 teaspoon of prague powder called for in Len Poli's recipes .80 percent. Grateful for any advice!

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Post by Butterbean » Thu Jan 14, 2016 22:01

Its 1 tsp per pound of uncured meat so you would be adding to much. The ham is cured so don't count that. Yes, you reduce it.
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Post by Reggie » Thu Jan 14, 2016 22:18

Butterbean wrote:Its 1 tsp per pound of uncured meat so you would be adding to much. The ham is cured so don't count that. Yes, you reduce it.
So, my plan is to mix entire spice recipe for 5 lbs of Andouille into 1 lb of meat paste binder. Then to mix it with 4 lbs of cubed ham and let sit at room temperature for at least 6 hours to blend. Then to chill and stuff into summer sausage sized cellulose before smoking to temp. I have brat sized natural casings that I could use, but since I am doing this by myself, the natural casings will be much more of a PITA. Any advice on cellulose vs. natural?

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Post by Butterbean » Thu Jan 14, 2016 22:58

I apologize if I'm not following you correctly but I have some questions.

So you are quadrupling the amount of spice you are adding to the 1 lb of mince? Does this mix include salt? I also don't know why you'd want to leave ground meat out for six hours at room temp. Is this to ferment? Also, is the cured ham cooked or smoked?

On the casings, since you will be adding chunks of meat to the mince a larger cellulose case might be easier but that would really depend on the size chunks of ham you are adding.

What it sounds like is you are wanting the ham to be floating in an andouille sausage that is four times stronger than what you normally eat.

If you are wanting to have the ham chunks in the andouille to have the same flavor as the andouille then I'd go at it a different route.

I would save your ham for something else and take your recipe and chunk up some pork keeping the leaner pork separated from the fattier pork. Weigh each pile and apply salt and cure at the appropriate amount to each and then pro-rate the spices and after a day I'd dust each pile down with the spice mix then I'd let them sit in fridge another day. After this, I'd grind each pile of meat through a large plate then set the ham or leaner meat to the side and grind the fattier meats though the 3/16's plate another and possibly a second time if I wanted a creamy texture and a big contrast between the two meats in the sausage. Then mix all the meat together and stuff. This way all the meat will be treated the same.
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Post by Bob K » Thu Jan 14, 2016 23:24

Regie

You really cant substitute an already finished product like ham into a recipe that calls for fresh.
The ham wont flavor the same as the raw meat. I hope that makes sense.
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Post by Reggie » Fri Jan 15, 2016 13:13

Bob K wrote:Regie

You really cant substitute an already finished product like ham into a recipe that calls for fresh.
The ham wont flavor the same as the raw meat. I hope that makes sense.
I am interested in adjusting the spice mixture, starting with the cure and the salt to create a product that will have "andouille characteristics" My instincts are telling me that this would be pretty tasty as a flavoring meat for beans and gumbo. So....maybe it would be better to go 50/50 on meat paste to cubed ham? Has anybody heard of anyone who has done this? I'm going to try it and will report back on the result. Hopefully with some pictures. If anyone has any additional advice, I would be grateful to hear it.

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Post by Bob K » Fri Jan 15, 2016 13:26

Try going 60/40 or less and make it look like the fat chunks in Butterbeans Mortadela...
It might work but the ham chunks might separate when you smoke/cook it as the moisture contents of the meats are a lot different.

good luck !

photo courtesy of Butterbean
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Post by Reggie » Fri Jan 15, 2016 18:29

Bob K wrote:Try going 60/40 or less and make it look like the fat chunks in Butterbeans Mortadela...
It might work but the ham chunks might separate when you smoke/cook it as the moisture contents of the meats are a lot different.

good luck !

photo courtesy of Butterbean
[url=http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b51 ... qvzqym.jpg]Image[/URL]
Wow, that looks tasty! What is to the left of the Mortadella? I'm going to cold smoke it for about 6 hours and then bring it up to where I get 150 degrees internal temp. Would you recommend cellulose or natural casings for this?
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Post by Butterbean » Fri Jan 15, 2016 19:36

Reggie, what you are doing is on the lines of what some call force meats. The principles here are the base of things like terrines, pate's, galantines and sausages. There tons of different ways and styles to do this but the basic principles are pretty much the same so all you need to do is experiment with the different techniques and you can bring this into your sausage making and be creative like you are wanting to do. Once you get the basics down the only limit will be your imagination.

What I had envisioned you wanting to do is make something like Bierschinken which is basically a fine emulsion around bits of ham all cured at the same time but ground or cut differently.

Image

Or the krakowska sausage. I'm pretty sure there are several recipes for this on this board.

Image

These aren't hard sausages to make but there are some tricks and things you will learn as you go. I've made plenty of mistakes and am still learning. One, train wreck was from following a recipe that called for bacon so I used cured bacon. That is wrong. I was ignorant and didn't realize that some countries refer to uncured belly as bacon. So I hope my mistake will keep you off that stumble.

The sausage on the left is just a sweet sandwich ham. I had intended to have larger pieces of that show meat but I had a problem when I was working the meat and overdid it a bit. It didn't hurt the flavor at all just the looks. It looks fatty when its not. Its actually very lean.

But basically to get what I think you want all you need do is separate your meats and cure, salt and spice them for a few days in the cooler. Once they have sat there for 2-3 days then either cube up the lean meat (ham) like you want or grind with the largest plate you have. Then grind the other meat to get the paste you want to submerge the big cuts into. The bierschinken would be ground with the fine plate after you grind with the 3/16" plate at least once or twice. I think you'd get the krawkowska look with just a single pass through the 3/16 plate.

Since I like to make sandwiches with stuff like this i use a large collagen casing or a sock. For cooking I do it both ways but prefer to poach it first. Submerge in water bath. Cool overnight in fridge then cold smoke.

Hope this helps and good luck. This is fun stuff you are looking at doing and if it comes out good please share your recipe because it sounds interesting.
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Post by Reggie » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:44

Butterbean wrote:Reggie, what you are doing is on the lines of what some call force meats. The principles here are the base of things like terrines, pate's, galantines and sausages. There tons of different ways and styles to do this but the basic principles are pretty much the same so all you need to do is experiment with the different techniques and you can bring this into your sausage making and be creative like you are wanting to do. Once you get the basics down the only limit will be your imagination.

What I had envisioned you wanting to do is make something like Bierschinken which is basically a fine emulsion around bits of ham all cured at the same time but ground or cut differently.

Image

Or the krakowska sausage. I'm pretty sure there are several recipes for this on this board.

Image

These aren't hard sausages to make but there are some tricks and things you will learn as you go. I've made plenty of mistakes and am still learning. One, train wreck was from following a recipe that called for bacon so I used cured bacon. That is wrong. I was ignorant and didn't realize that some countries refer to uncured belly as bacon. So I hope my mistake will keep you off that stumble.

The sausage on the left is just a sweet sandwich ham. I had intended to have larger pieces of that show meat but I had a problem when I was working the meat and overdid it a bit. It didn't hurt the flavor at all just the looks. It looks fatty when its not. Its actually very lean.

But basically to get what I think you want all you need do is separate your meats and cure, salt and spice them for a few days in the cooler. Once they have sat there for 2-3 days then either cube up the lean meat (ham) like you want or grind with the largest plate you have. Then grind the other meat to get the paste you want to submerge the big cuts into. The bierschinken would be ground with the fine plate after you grind with the 3/16" plate at least once or twice. I think you'd get the krawkowska look with just a single pass through the 3/16 plate.

Since I like to make sandwiches with stuff like this i use a large collagen casing or a sock. For cooking I do it both ways but prefer to poach it first. Submerge in water bath. Cool overnight in fridge then cold smoke.

Hope this helps and good luck. This is fun stuff you are looking at doing and if it comes out good please share your recipe because it sounds interesting.
Thank you Butterbean. The Krakowska looks like what I am imagining. If I go 60/40 cooked cured ham to meat paste, should I completely omit cure and salt from the spice mixture for the ham chunks? Also, I plan to use this as seasoning for soups and beans. Can I omit the poaching step if I bring the product up to an internal temp of 150 degrees in the smoker...and then freeze it? Having said that, I'm tempted to hang some if it to dry to see how it would turn out. If I use 2.5 inch cellulose to stuff these, I will end up with 2. Is there any risk or downside to hanging one of them in a cool place for 2 weeks or so....since I'm using pink salt instead of cure #2?
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Post by Butterbean » Sun Jan 17, 2016 15:23

The Krakowska looks like what I am imagining. If I go 60/40 cooked cured ham to meat paste, should I completely omit cure and salt from the spice mixture for the ham chunks?

Let me first say what I am saying is what I'd do and I'm not saying you can't do it another way but how I'd go at it is I would not use cooked meat in the product. Just don't know how well this would bind and also there is no need to cook the meat twice.

I'd cure the "ham chunks" separate and cure them just as you would do the meat for the emulsion and this would basically give you chunks of tasso ham in the emulsified meat. Also, if I were going to use these chunks of ham just as I cut them with a knife I might give them a quick rinse to insure they will bind to the emulsion. Also you want to be sure these chunks have had time to cure and take up the salt. This will depend on how big you cut them but I wouldn't get in a hurry and would let all the meat cure in the fridge for at least two days - preferably three. My preference would be to run the chunks through the largest grinding plate I had because this would, I think, further mix the spices in the meat chunks and make for an easier bind. (my worry is the spice on the outside of the cured ham harming the set of the ham to the emulsion) Also, once stuffed, I would let the sausages rest a day in the cooler before cooking. This would let the flavors meld but also give the cure time to cure any areas of the meat that might not have cured. (this is just being super conservative because I have a pet peve about cutting into a ham and seeing uncured portions of meat)

Also, I plan to use this as seasoning for soups and beans. Can I omit the poaching step if I bring the product up to an internal temp of 150 degrees in the smoker...and then freeze it?

Most definitely. The only reason I mention the poaching is it is much faster and easier to control the cook and a cold smoke later will give you a nice smoky flavor.


Having said that, I'm tempted to hang some if it to dry to see how it would turn out. If I use 2.5 inch cellulose to stuff these, I will end up with 2. Is there any risk or downside to hanging one of them in a cool place for 2 weeks or so....since I'm using pink salt instead of cure #2?

That's above my pay grade. I would think you'd be safer if doing this to ferment the meat with a starter to get the meat over some safety hurdles. This would surely give the meat an interesting flavor as well.. Also, you might be better off using Tendequick since it has both nitrite and nitrate. To use this just substitute Tenderquick for all your salts. Or just use Cure 2 instead of 1.

Also, to help with things sticking together you might want to try adding some pork skins. Just soften them in a pot of boiling water and grind in processor till you have a slurry. I added about 9.6 ounces of this slurry to the 10 lbs of meat in the ham chub you asked about. It worked well and you couldn't tell it was even in there from a taste standpoint but I think it really helped to glue things together.

Also, if you are looking at doing this for sandwich meat you might want to look at purchasing a new product Walton's is carrying. Its a smoke sock. They are covered in a smoke paste - a little messy to work with - but they do a great job and you can stuff over 10 lbs in each sock and it gives the finished meat a nice look. This is what the sausage in the left was stuffed in.

I hope I wasn't too wordy. Just so many ways of going at this but this is how I would approach it.
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Post by Bob K » Sun Jan 17, 2016 15:30

Does that casing also add smoke flavor? Doesnt say on the website.
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Post by Butterbean » Sun Jan 17, 2016 17:21

It does add some smoke on the outside. I think its more pronounced if you poach the meat because is would season the water. I was a little concerned that poaching then cold smoking might add too much smoke to the meat but I tried it and everyone loved it.

One guy even went on a rant of how when he bought smoked ham sandwich meat at the store you couldn't even taste the smoke and he said this was the best smoked ham sandwich meat he'd ever eaten. But you know how people's tastes are. Heck, I had one guy on me for some smoked bacon when I was building a new smokehouse only to be told by him later he couldn't eat the bacon because he didn't like smoked meats. :shock:

Only downside I see with them is they are a bit messy. The smoke stuff is tar like and is a devil to clean off a cutting board. Other than that, I like them a lot.
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