Fat Smearing Problem

checkerfred
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Post by checkerfred » Wed May 30, 2012 01:31

even though it mixed better, it's still dripping out at low temps....the landjager above dripped out at 100 degrees during fermenting, and even more when I put it in a 125-130 degree smoker
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Post by ssorllih » Wed May 30, 2012 01:39

Fat melts at about 100 degrees F. I accidently left a small slice of cheddar cheese on my note pad last night and this afternoon when I came home I had an oil stain on the paper. My ac is set at 80° F.
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Post by redzed » Thu May 31, 2012 06:20

Are you sure that what you are getting are trimmings from pork butts? To me it sounds like there might be leaf lard in the mix. This is the stuff that supermarkets throw out, and use decent trimmings in their own sausage products. Leaf lard melts at a lower temperature than other fats and is not suitable for sausage. Using it will result in a soft and greasy product. (I'm speaking from personal experience here). It makes great lard for pie crusts but not sausage.
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Post by story28 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 00:54

We have success with salting the fat with its proportion of the recipe for two days prior to grinding. It firms up the cell walls and draws out excessive moisture. We get a very clean grind employing this technique in addition to the basic steps.
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Post by DLFL » Mon Jun 11, 2012 05:36

story28, Jason that is good suggestion. I am adding it to my list of hints.
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 07:11

OK I'm still having problems with this. This time I used fat back from a hog we had slaughtered. When I make snack sticks using summer sausage spices stuff in hog casings or landjager I didn't have much problem. But I did some deer pepperoni and some small size slim Jims and the fat dripped everywhere. I had the fat back cut up into small cubes, mixed with the meat then I ground it up. I haven't tried salting the fat overnight. I also tried adding a lot less water when mixing. This is bugging me.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Mar 03, 2014 07:25

Checkerfred, will you be more specific? Please list the recipe and list the details you use making it. I'm sure it's just an overlooked part of the procedure that you don't quite understand. We'll nail it down for you, but we've got to know all the details.

Best Wishes,
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 08:13

Sorry Chuck, I assumed it was still due to my grinding. Ok, so I used this method for 4 batches of sausages. 2 batches were Landjager and Summer Sausage (though I can't call it that cause they were put into hog casings :) )

Grinding, I mostly thawed the venison in a cold fridge. Fat was cut into small 1/2" cubes while mostly still frozen (barely thawed). Fat was put back into the freezer until ready to grind. I did an 8lb batch of summer sausage sticks and landjager. I measured my spices, prepared my casings, set aside. Then measured approx. 78% deer and 22% fat back. Folded the fat into the meat, and ground. Mixed my spices in, then my culture, then stuffed. I tried to use minimal amount of water. For the 8lb batches I used about 3/4 of a cup. For the 3 lb pepperoni and 2.5 lb slim jims I used about 1/2 cup.

Fermentation. All sausages were fermented. I fermented in an over with only the light on. Temp was around 90 degrees at anywhere from 88-95% humidity. The summer sausage and landjager did fine, the pepperoni and slim jims already were dripping some fat. After fermentation, I wiped the moisture off, held at room temp for 30 min or so, then put into a 120 degree smoker to dry for about an hour. Then I bumped the temp up to 140, smoking for 3-4 hours (about 2 for the pepperoni sticks and slim jims). Then bumped up to 150. After 30 min I bumped to 160 then the same to 170. My smoker temp seems to be 15-20 degrees off. So if I need to I up the temp to 180 until I reach temp. The landjager and pepperoni and snack sticks are still in there. The Pepperoni and snack sticks were dripping fat right away after putting them in...once I started smoking they dripped more.

Out of curiosity, I took a snack stick and cut the casing off. It looked uniform. No air pockets from stuffing. Also the cut didn't have holes like you'd see from the fat specks melting out. I'm wondering if I'm mixing it too much before stuffing. I don't feel like I am. I feel like I am mixing it until distributed.

Recipe's to follow.
Last edited by checkerfred on Mon Mar 03, 2014 08:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 08:30

I have adjusted the spices over several batches to my preference so they may not match the exact recipe. I typically use around .6% dextrose during fermentation to control my ph drop and I also ferment for about 16-18 hours. I check the ph and usually pull when it hits 4.4 to 4.8

SS sticks, Landjager, and pepperoni sticks were stuffed into 32-35mm hog casings. Slim jims were stuffed into 17mm collagen casings.

Summer Sausage sticks are the same spice mix as used in the Marianski book, which is the same on the website.

For 8lbs I used:
Cure 1: 9.07g
Salt 83.5 g
Dextrose .6% 21.8 g
Sugar .5% 18g
Black Pepper 11g
Coriander 7.25g
Mustard Seed 16g
Allspice 7.25g
Garlic Powder 14g
Starter Culture LHP 1 tsp
Special Meat Binder (from butcher packer) 18 g
3/4 cup of water (1/2 for spices 1/4 for culture)


Landjager (L. Poli)

Cure 1: 9.07g
Salt 75.5g
Dextrose .5% 18.15g
White Pepper 18.15g
Caraway Seed 12g
Coriander 2.75g
Garlic Powder 4g
Mace 2.25g
LHP Starter Culture 1 tsp
Meat binder 18.15g
3/4 Water (same as above)

Pepperoni Stick (not sure where I got the recipe, somewhere online, I checked over the key ingredients before making. I made this a few times before and it tasted good)

3.5 lbs

Cure 1: 3.97 g
Dextrose .65% 11g
Salt 35g
Paprika 8.5g
Black Pepper 3.5g
Cayenne Pepper 4g
Coriander 1g
Garlic Powder .75g
Fennel/Anise Mix 2.5g
(Measured 4g fennel and 2.5g star anise, toasted at 350deg. for 5 min, ground, then measured out)
LHP Culture 1/2 tsp
Meat Binder 8g
1/2 cup water (1/4th for culture 1/4th for spices)

Slim Jims (L.Poli)
His recipe doesn't have the culture and calls for sodium erythorbate and phosphates

2.23 lbs
cure 1: 2.53g
NF dry milk powder - 18g
salt 24g
dextrose 6g
paprika 5g
meat binder 5.5g
black pepper 1.75g
garlic powder 1.25g
marjoram 1.22g
nutmeg 0.85g
ginger 0.75g
cayenne 0.5g
LHP Culture 1/2 tsp
1/2 cup water (same as above)

The collagen casings always seem render out and what doesn't drip out stays between the casing and meat. I had to throw some out that I made several weeks ago because I got what was similar to case hardening during drying in the fridge. The fat created a barrier and the meat spoiled on the inside (turned gray). Not all sticks done this but I threw them all out to be safe.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Mar 03, 2014 09:16

Checkerfred,
Hmmmm..... that`s not Stan`s Summer Sausage recipe pal. He not only uses F-LC rather than LHP in this recipe, but never uses Special Meat Binder and very seldom any "added water". Note that only 0.24 grams of culture is used in a full kilogram of meat rather than a full teaspoon for 8 pounds. And the highest fermentation temperature listed is 86°F. Where did you come up with all this stuff? I can`t comment about Poli`s recipes because he does not share any information about them.

Checkerfred, here are a few tips and tricks to avoid smearing. How about reviewing them and see if you are making a mistake somewhere. Also, be sure that you are using top quality back fat rather than leaf lard or inner fat.

As meat and fat slide into a casing during stuffing, the inside of the casing may become "smeared" if the fat has been allowed to warm up - even slightly - during processing. Smearing may primarily occur whenever friction-heated mechanical parts (such as grinder blades, plates, augers, etc.) encounter fat particles that have not been frozen. Forcing room-temperature fat through a grinder is a sure-fire method of smearing an otherwise great sausage. Smeared fat may cause all sorts of problems. First the texture suffers as otherwise creamy, flavorful fat becomes altered as it is heated and "broken" into liquid, leaving a dry, "sandy" consistency behind.

In smoked-cooked (cured) sausage, fat that has been heated too much or too quickly may leave re-solidified orange liquid in pockets throughout the meat. Any melting at all, quickly indicated that the heat is too high. Period. :shock:

It is true that good meat makes good sausage. But, it is really HOW you make it that is most important. You must put all the little tricks together to make a great product. Thaw the meat inside your refrigerator and then grind it while it still has a few softened ice chips in its texture. Separate the fat and freeze it before dicing it with a sharp knife. Pop it back into the freezer twenty minutes then put the frozen fat through the grinder. Don`t forget to freeze you grinder`s plate and knives for twenty minutes. Use softened ice chips to keep the mixture below 38°;F. (3°;C.). Never miss an opportunity to put the meat back into the refrigerator. Always work in small batches either grinding, emulsifying, or stuffing, and keep the remainder in your fridge. Allow the meat and fat to become cold, cold, cold before you stuff it into casings.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 09:46

Chuckwagon wrote:Checkerfred,
Hmmmm..... that`s not Stan`s Summer Sausage recipe pal. He not only uses F-LC rather than LHP in this recipe, but never uses Special Meat Binder and very seldom any "added water". Note that only 0.24 grams of culture is used in a full kilogram of meat rather than a full teaspoon for 8 pounds. And the highest fermentation temperature listed is 86°F. Where did you come up with all this stuff? I can`t comment about Poli`s recipes because he does not share any information about them.
Chuckwagon
Please go back and read my post. I said the "spice mix" is the same recipe. No he does not list LHP, but that is what I have so it's what I used. Does it taste different? I'm sure but again that's what I had and what I used. I followed fermentation as per the instructions that I received when I bought the culture. Optimum growth @95 degrees with sugar levels at 1/2% to 1%. Mixing the cuture in water equal to .5% batch weight which the Marianski book recommends 1/2 cup of water mixed with 1/2 teaspoon of culture. Furthermore, the instructions of the culture recommend using at least 1/4 or 10 grams of the packet for smaller batches. Regarding added water, i thought it was standard practice in mixing spices, especially cure, for better distribution when making sausages, except dry cured? I KNOW I've read this in several books and on people doing it here. The meat binder, again no he does not call for it, but I've been using it to help the sausage hold moisture and hopefully keep the fat from rendering out. I will say that since i've been using it with venison, the sausage has turned out much more moist and hasn't been crumbly like in the past, even when some fat melts out.

If you also go back and read, my fat was only thawed to where I could cut it, but it was still frozen. It WAS backfat. Not sure how much higher quality it could be. It came from a hog we raised and had slaughtered. I didn't elaborate enough but after the initial grind it was put back into the freezer along with the grinder parts. Then ground again, spices mixed and stuffed immediately. Do I need to put the meat back into the freezer for a few more minutes after mixing the spices/culture?

Chuckwagon wrote:Checkerfred,

In smoked-cooked (cured) sausage, fat that has been heated too much or too quickly may leave re-solidified orange liquid in pockets throughout the meat. Any melting at all, quickly indicated that the heat is too high. Period. :shock:
It did do this, but first during fermentation with the pepperoni and slim jims ONLY. This is at low temps of 95 degrees. Also, when put in the smoker at 120-140 degrees, even more melted out. You mention melting out too quickly. This is EXACTLY why I posted in another thread about bumping my temps incrementally every so often and I was chewed out for not following the recipe.
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:14

The instructions for F-LC that I have seen also call for fermentation temps at 70-115 F. SausageMaker.com says 80F for slow/light acidification and 95-115 for high fast acidification. So even if I had used F-LC I would have been in the correct temperature range for fermentation. I don't just make stuff up.

I keep going back to why the fat melted out at low temps. My questions:

Should I grind through a coarse plate, fine plate, or both?

Should I return meat to freezer for a bit after mixing spices and culture? Or just spices? Or neither?

What about putting my stuffer cylinder in the freezer?

Is my smoking process off? Should I bump up temps? If so, how often and by how much?

Do I need to pack my casings tighter? I've tried but I seem to have a problem with busting open casings, so I backed off.

Should I not mix spices and more importantly, cure with water before adding to the meat? I HAVE to mix the culture with water.
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:38

CFred - can you check the temperature of the mix just as it has lef the tube?
Just tug the termometer probe into the tube and give it a reading.

A more cumbersome way to keep fat and meat seperate would be to initially cut the backfat into so small pieces that you dont even need to grind it together with the meat but simply just blend this stone hard frozen "backfat-snow" into the meat.

What home-makers really neet in such instances is a bowl cutter because the whole process would be done by knives without involving any moulding´n kneading of the mix, but such machines don´t come for free.

Freezing the filler could be one solution but also keeping the tube as cold as possible, frequently freezing it between fillings, could perhaps help.

In this issue about fat smearing I don´t think that the cultures can be blamed much, except for the fact that the "Optimum growth @95 degrees" info can mislead into thinking that one ought to go that high to obtain the best result. But what is an optimum temperature for the bacteria isn´t exactly the best temperature if you want to keep the fat stable within the emulsion. Like ol´Chuck I´d prefer to leave fermentation temperature around 86°F but not higher. Even 80°F would do the job if you use a fast culture like LHP and I´m sure you will not miss any tang as your dextrose addition is quite sufficient.

As for water I would personally not use any at all.
I know that what I say now may be revolting to some but I usually just after opening the sachet of starter culture, quickly mix the needed amount directly with the other ingredients (mainly spices) and blend it into the meat -but NEVER together with the salt (we don´t want to chock the bacteria too much!).
If some would ask "but doesn´t it prolong the lag phase if you dont allow the culture to wake up" I would have to answer, that I haven´t experienced this as a practical problem so far. But of course for such small batches like in your recipes distribution may get a bit more even when dispersing the water+bacteria slurry gradually into the meat mix.

How early/late in the proccess do you add the salt ?

Can you tell something about the composition of the "Meat binder" - is it a phosphate mix ? :shock:

As for the smoking: Would it be possible for you to start out at an even lower temperature like, say 100°F and then only very gradually rise it to a max of 140-150°F.
I guess that for safety reasons 170°F is usually recommended, but we are after all dealing with products that have both a low pH and decreasing water activity - especially if you leave them hanging for a bit of afterdrying.

As for L.Poli´s addition of sodium erythorbate I would not hesitate to use it in any recipe that involves cure.
It won´t do much difference in recipes that call for kitchen salt only, but in cured meats it will help keeping the color stable if you intend to store them for a while.
Just remember not to go above the 0,3 gr pr. lb. dosage limit.
Wishing you a Good Day!
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:52

Hey, hey, Checkerfred,
Please understand how many posts I have to read each day (and I answer many). Then I check for the spammers. Then I welcome new members and write to each one to make them feel like part of WD. Then I go to the emails. Then I go to the PM`s. Makes for a long, long, day pard! Not complain` because I love the work... but... I read many of the posts quickly and scan down through material often. I should have paid closer attention to some of the things you were pointing out. One more thing pal... I know you are an experienced sausage maker, but would you go back and read my "32 Tips To Save You Grief"? You might be missing some little trick somewhere. Here`s a link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5036

Okay, next item. I write a response to any basic question, trying to help others understand the problem and the answers. Sometimes I get off track a little just to try to cover a point or reveal some goofy or strange principle or message to others. You may think all that "advice" is all intended for you when it isn`t. So if I hit a nerve somewhere, please don`t take offense. Shucks pal, I know your curing chamber is the right temp. But I`d like others to check theirs while we`re talking about it. Make sense? :roll:

Next item, I hope I didn`t seem like I was "scolding" you for using Poli`s recipe. I just don`t know much about his procedures and data because he won`t share them like Stan Marianski does with his info. Stan is a fellow moderator on this site and probably the world`s leading authority on the subject of sausage making.

If it`s one thing I`ve learned at WD, it`s that a person should follow one recipe at a time and not try to combine the information from two different authors. I`ve seen a few members actually try to make Poli`s sausage with Marianski`s instructions. When it failed, they blamed Marianski for the "wrong" procedure. How crazy is that?
Okay, FredChecker... :wink: let me try to answer a few of your questions.
Should I grind through a coarse plate, fine plate, or both?
Depending upon the type of sausage you are making, grind separate sizes with a frozen plate and one heck of a sharp knife.
Should I return meat to freezer for a bit after mixing spices and culture? Or just spices? Or neither?
Return the meat to the fridge at every single convenience, even if it is for just a couple of minutes. Keep that stuff cold, cold, cold!
What about putting my stuffer cylinder in the freezer?
Do it. Stuff as much hardware in the freezer as you can get away with.
Is my smoking process off? Should I bump up temps? If so, how often and by how much?
Remember, all you need is a thin stream of smoke moving slowly past the meat. No huge amounts of smoke needed. And certainly not any excessive heat. I use enough heat beneath a stainless steel pan to start the sawdust smoldering. Once it does, I turn it way down and use just enough heat to keep it going. There is a product on the market now that is just about foolproof for those still having trouble. It`s called the Amazen Smoker and it really works well.
Do I need to pack my casings tighter? I've tried but I seem to have a problem with busting open casings, so I backed off.
If you`ve backed off just to the point where they no longer burst, then I`d say you`ve got just the right touch!
Should I not mix spices and more importantly, cure with water before adding to the meat? I HAVE to mix the culture with water.

I didn`t mean the cup we all use for mixing the Cure #1 and spices. Some folks get carried away and think they have to add all kinds of liquid so that it will go through the stuffer more easily - especially a horn stuffer. Too much liquid is a big mistake. When the proteins develop and produce a sticky meat "paste", that`s the correct texture.

Last but not least, search back through our site for answers. There's a wealth of information provided by successful folks who share their information. Be sure to "turn pages" with the arrow at the lower right hand corner of multiple page formats. Most topics have several pages of posts. And last of all... don't stop asking questions. We're here to help! Now, eat all your broccoli and stay well! :lol:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by checkerfred » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:56

Igor, thanks for the reply... Next batch I make I will document everything like the temp out of the stuffer and report back. Salt I'd added with the spices right away then I add my culture then stuff. The meat binder is a blend of phosphates. It came from butcher packer.

Chuck wagon, also thanks for your reply back. I understand what you mean. I definitely don't consider myself experienced. Though I've learned a lot I'm still fairly new and learning about the process. I have only attempted fresh and semi dry sausages so far. Until I get the semi dry process down I won't get into dry cured sausages.

I get what your saying about poli's recipe and about people mixing and failing and blaming someone else lol. I was curious to try the spice mix in that recipe. It didn't seem too different from anything else I've tried regarding the overall process. I tried to use the smoking process like kabanosy.

Speaking of smoking process, I do have the Amazen smoker. What I meant above was my process in regards to my temps. I've seen several recipes using venison call for an internal temp of 160. Most other recipes, like many of the marianski ones call for an IT of 140, so of his, and even many in ryteks book call for something in the 150's. Either way I'm still leaving out fat at low smoke house temps.

This leads me to think I'm over mixing or my grinding process is off. My blades should be still sharp enough. I've had. The grinder for 2-3 years but with very light use. I don't think it's water related as I cut back more than what I usually use.

I will definitely go back and read your tips. I read them not long ago but will read again. My next batch I am going to document EVERYTHING even with pics.
Then try to pinpoint this.
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