Dry-curing & Fermentation

charcutebrew
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Post by charcutebrew » Fri Jun 10, 2011 05:03

Just astounded with all the knowledge here. Thanks!

I'll confess, I'm not a total idiot. :wink: And I generally do my reading when I get into something. Must be the doggone grad degree in English, I'm stuck on some language things. Sorry! Not tryin' to be a snot in any way!

If the difference between salami & jerky is the water activity & pH... what makes the difference? I can't recall from when I've made jerky... does it use a bunch more salt than salami? Or is the assumption that the pH of salami will drop, but that of jerky will not? By extension, if you assume the jerky won't ferment/drop pH, why would ground meat in a casing necessarily act differently? Is the assumption that you're going to add a bacterial culture to salami?

If we "start to spoil" (but not quite, really) meat in a fermented product... is it the salt that slows down the dehydration? Cuz man, I thought salt would speed UP dehydration? :???: And then... if salt slows down dehydration, why doesn't it have the same effect on jerky? Massively different quantities of salt or something?

Really, really interesting to me that the difference between 3% and 3.5% salt can make the difference between fermentation & just dehydration. MAN that makes me want a more accurate scale to make sure I weigh the salt exactly right for my recipes!!!!

I do understand the difference between #1 & #2 cures. My confusion was the specification of #2 being ONLY for DRY-CURED. What stumps me is that both #1 & #2 contain the same percentage of nitrite; #2 just also has that 4% of -ate... sooooo... if you smoke a sausage that has nitrate in it, is it gonna kill you? Does something wicked happen to the nitrate when you heat it or smoke it? Is -ate infinitely worse to ingest, whereas if given the time to break down into -ite it'd be ok? I understand that #2 HAS to be used for the extended curing time of a dry-cured salami. What I don't understand is why it is ONLY for dry-cured. What's the HARM in using it for, say, a smoked or fresh sausage? That ONLY kinda sounds like you CAN'T use it in a smoked sausage... or it's gonna be a dirt nap for ya. Y'all understand the point of this novice's confusion?

You're awesome! Thanks for such great help & guidance!
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Jun 10, 2011 13:02

Charcutebrew, you wrote:
If the difference between salami & jerky is the water activity & pH... what makes the difference?

Jerky dehydrated quickly, is safe to eat because the salt used to "cure" the product isolates and "binds" the water that is available to bacteria. The meat does not have a chance to spoil. On the other hand, in a slowly dehydrated salami, the initial salt content is the meat`s only protection from pathogenic bacteria because it "binds" and restricts the available water, while the lactobacilli go to work producing lactic acid from the nutrients (sugar). Lactobacilli are much less sensitive to water activity and perform very well until the Aw (water activity) drops down to Aw 0.92.

No, there is not necessarily more salt in one than the other. With jerky, we are concerned with dehydration - the loss of moisture until a point is reached where bacteria are no longer a threat and meat becomes "microbiologically stable". In jerky, the pH level is of little concern. We are considering the Aw level.

On the other hand, in making salami we are concerned with fermentation AND slow dehydration. In order to have safe and controlled fermentation we must initially control the water "available" to pathogenic bacteria. Therefore we incorporate salt which "binds" the available water to bacteria while lactobacilli go to work increasing the acidity of the product.

Whether or not comminuted meat is inside a casing, makes little difference other than in salami, the sausage dries from the inside out. That`s why it is so important not to dry the outside too quickly, trapping moisture inside where it will eventually spoil the meat. In a fermented sausage, we encourage the spoilage process (fermentation) by actually slowing down the drying process by keeping it in a chamber of controlled higher humidity. This allows lactobacilli and pediococci the opportunity and time to produce lactic acid without competing for nutrient by disparate pathogenic bacteria. The fermentation continues until a point is reached where no more sugar is available to the bacteria.

Stan Marianski wrote, "Removing water content by drying a sausage is a slow process which is not practical when we want to make a product safe to consume within a few days". He continued, "Slow, controlled drying is the method applied to traditionally made slow-fermented sausages which require three months or more to produce. As the process proceeds, water starts to evaporate making meat stronger against spoilage and pathogenic bacteria." - (Home Production Of Quality Meats And Sausages - p.337)

You asked if it was the salt that slows down the dehydration. No. Please understand that the addition of salt to meat does not compel water to evaporate. Again, let me share Stan Marianski's wisdom. I don't think he'll mind a bit if I quote him a few times here. Salt merely immobilizes "free water" and prevents it from reacting with anything else... including bacteria. Water activity (Aw) indicates how tightly water is "bound" inside a sausage. It does not indicate how much water is actually there, but it does indicate how much water is "available" to support the growth of the three microorganisms - yeasts, molds, and bacteria. Eventually, a point is reached where bacteria are no longer a threat and meat becomes "microbiologically stable". As long as it is kept in low humidity at low temperature, it is safe. However, if these two factors are increased, new bacteria on the outside of the product will migrate toward the center of the sausage, spoiling it eventually.

You wrote:
Really, really interesting to me that the difference between 3% and 3.5% salt can make the difference between fermentation & just dehydration. MAN that makes me want a more accurate scale to make sure I weigh the salt exactly right for my recipes!!!!
You`d better believe it dude! Always weigh it and for goodness sakes, don`t reduce the amount in a recipe thinking you are doing yourself a favor. The stuff modifies proteins and binds meat among other purposes. How about checking out this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4824 Fresh sausages normally contain about one and a half to two percent salt. An amount exceeding 3.5% is pushing the limit. At 5% the product is generally not palatable. The best rule to follow is "two grams of salt for a hundred grams of meat". In other words, in fresh sausages, use two percent. Fermented sausages require just a bit more - about 2.5% - 3%. If you`re not using a starter culture, it`s best to add 3% - 3.5% salt.
In meat containing only 1% salt, lactobacilli will grow slower and only a barely noticeable decrease takes place in the growth of spoilage bacteria. At 3% salt, lactobacilli will still grow but spoilage and pathogenic bacteria become subdued. At 4% salt, lactobacilli are repressed but amazingly still growing slowly. However, pathogenic and spoilage bacteria have become inhibited at this point.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Jun 11, 2011 01:02

Charcutebrew, you wrote:
sooooo... if you smoke a sausage that has nitrate in it, is it gonna kill you? Does something wicked happen to the nitrate when you heat it or smoke it? What I don't understand is why it is ONLY for dry-cured. What's the HARM in using it for, say, a smoked or fresh sausage? That ONLY kinda sounds like you CAN'T use it in a smoked sausage... or it's gonna be a dirt nap for ya.
Strangely enough, that is the truth. We safely use nitrates in small amounts, to cure air-dried sausages that ARE NOT COOKED. They simply break down into nitrite over time, and turn meat into delicious salami and pepperoni. However, during the early 1970`s, it was found that bacon cured with nitrate, produced nitrosamines when it was fried crispy. For this reason, nitrate is no longer legal to use as a cure in bacon. (Nitrosamines are produced when nitrates combine with byproducts of protein called "amines", in the stomach). You're right. It will not kill you. At least not right off the bat. Unless you take a spoonful of it.

Now, allow me to ask you a question. Why would you want to put something into your body that you don`t need? Why put a known carcinogen into your body when you don`t need it? You asked, "What's the HARM in using it for, say, a smoked or fresh sausage?". You decide Charcutebrew.

Additionally, it has been found by the National Reasearch Council Of The Academy Of Sciences, that nitrite does not directly harm us in any way when used in amounts prescribed by the USDA. Further, common vegetables contain higher amounts of nitrate than any other food and range from spinach (containing 1631 mg. in one kg.) all the way down to tomatoes (containing only 17 mg. in one kg.).

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by charcutebrew » Sat Jun 11, 2011 16:49

OK, cool! In other words:

Jerky=dehydrated quickly
Salami=dehydrated slowly-high humidity slows dehydration, which encourages fermentation

If nitrate breaks down to -ite it's ok. But if not, then it's carcinogenic over time.

Common vegetables contain more nitrate than any other food... which makes me wonder if spinach could be considered highly carcinogenic? I'm also curious about the food industry and loopholes. I know manufacturers use celery juice to cure "uncured" & "natural" meats because the celery has so much nitrate in it. It seems like the FDA should consider more than just the "face" source or what have you. Interesting stuff.

My undergrad degree is in conservation; my studies concentrated on organic farming & sustainable living. The reason I asked about the potential harm of nitrates the way I did was because I wasn't sure if that was the distinction between them being safe to use or not. Shoot, I don't even wear synthetic clothes. I'm not gonna go out of my way to eat a known carcinogen when I go out of my way to eat so much organic!

Reminds me of my big ol' toolchest out in the garage. You gotta have the right tool for the job.
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Post by ssorllih » Sat Jun 11, 2011 17:40

Nitrates are somewhat toxic. When combined with protein and heat they form nitrosamines and those are carcinogenic.
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Post by story28 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 23:18

charcutebrew wrote:OK, cool! In other words:

Jerky=dehydrated quickly
Salami=dehydrated slowly-high humidity slows dehydration, which encourages fermentation

If nitrate breaks down to -ite it's ok. But if not, then it's carcinogenic over time.

Common vegetables contain more nitrate than any other food... which makes me wonder if spinach could be considered highly carcinogenic? I'm also curious about the food industry and loopholes. I know manufacturers use celery juice to cure "uncured" & "natural" meats because the celery has so much nitrate in it. It seems like the FDA should consider more than just the "face" source or what have you. Interesting stuff.

My undergrad degree is in conservation; my studies concentrated on organic farming & sustainable living. The reason I asked about the potential harm of nitrates the way I did was because I wasn't sure if that was the distinction between them being safe to use or not. Shoot, I don't even wear synthetic clothes. I'm not gonna go out of my way to eat a known carcinogen when I go out of my way to eat so much organic!

Reminds me of my big ol' toolchest out in the garage. You gotta have the right tool for the job.
It has to do with the application of heat that allows those carcinogenic properties develop. I believe nitrosamines require a temperature of 266 F in order to develop. Those nitrate filled vegetables would be inedible well before that temperature could ever be reached, but a slice of fried bacon or grilled sausage(on or near the surface) does have that potential.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Jun 13, 2011 06:30

Bullseye, Jason!
Spot on again pal.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by charcutebrew » Wed Jun 15, 2011 19:58

Great distinction, story28. Thanks!
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Post by story28 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 03:35

No problem. Anything I can do to help :smile:
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Post by Kaiser Soze » Tue Dec 24, 2013 00:18

CW.
Does that mean that using salts from say Germany, we would have to use 10.5 times as much? Or, if a recipe became available from Germany, would we have to convert it to use our salt (cure) at a 10.5 times lower rate?

I'm gettin stuck here on th, th, th, this. :-)

I'm looking to make Landjäger and dried Krainerwurst ( Landjäger € 4./ 500gr in Germany and 13.95/lb US) and Kainerwurst is not available near here at all.

Eric
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Post by redzed » Sat Dec 28, 2013 20:01

Eric, the different curing salts, nitrites and nitrates have been discussed at great length here. If you haven't already, please read Marianski's section on cures found on this site, http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing and Chuckwagon's thread here http://www.wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4794.

When converting recipes use this Cure Calculator http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... calculator.

When I use a European recipe, I apply the process, use the ingredients, but disregard the suggested amount of salt and/or curing salt. I simply add 1,5 to 1.8% of salt and 0.24% of North American Cure #1 to smoked products, and 2.5% salt and .24% of Cure #2.
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Post by redzed » Sun Dec 29, 2013 18:07

Correction of the above post:

When I use a European recipe, I apply the process, use the ingredients, but disregard the suggested amount of salt and/or curing salt. I simply add 1.5 to 1.8% of salt and 0.24% of North American Cure #1 to smoked products, and 2.5% salt and .24% of Cure #2 to dry cured products.

When doing the conversions you will also note in the nitrite ppm numbers that Europeans use, are little less nitrite than the North American standard. For this reason I'm also reducing the amount of nitrite in my efforts.
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