Mondostart?

[redzed]

Is anyone familiar with the Mondostart cultures sold in Canada?

http://estores.wws5.com/stuffers.com/we ... target=340

[ajwillsnet]

The 2m mondostart is a starter culture used to make salami such as Cervlat.

Bert,

[redzed]

Thanks Bert, but what I am looking for is to which of the Chr. Hansen cultures do the Mondostart products duplicate or come close to?

[ajwillsnet]

Here is the email for Bill de Vos. He works for the company that makes these cultures. I am sure he will be able to guide you: BdeVos@mmis.ca
Le tme know how you make out.

Bert,

[redzed]

I finally received some info on the Mondo 2M starter culture I purchased a couple of weeks ago. Not much help from the spec sheets and the manufacturer claims they don't have anything else. The fermentation times are totally convoluted and difficult to understand for a techno peasant like me. So I am using it like other cultures. I am currently fermenting salami and soppressata. To each 5lb batch I added 1/2 teaspoon of Mondo 2 with a couple of ounces of distilled water and a pinch of dextrose. The dextrose was probably not necessary as it appears it's in the ingredients already, but probably won't hurt. The products are currently in my smoker (no smoke) with the temp at 24C (75F), but its been all over the place in the last 12 hours, as high as 88 and as low as 70. I hope the fermentation will be successful. Is there a way to upload these PDF files in larger format?

[ajwillsnet]

Hi Redzed: I have a recipe from MMIS for a Cervelat salami and they specify 1/2 gram of Modno 2m culture per kilo of meat. I am not sure how this compares to your 1/2 tsp per 5 pounds of meat, but I thought you would be interested.

Good luck with it.

Bert,

[redzed]

Bert, the 1/2 tsp weighed 2g., so that is comparable to your recipe. And from what I have gathered there is no danger of putting too much starter culture into meat. Do you have any other recipes that specify Mondostart?

I think I will have to convince Stuffer's Supply in Langley to start carrying the Bactoferm products which would remove this comparison and guessing for me. And I think that Mondo 2M is formulated for a faster cure so it may not work with some of the things I want to make. Will see how the salami and soppressata evolves.

Thanks

Chris

[Igor Duńczyk]

Hi Red,

I´ve been looking as closely as I could on the product data sheet of the Mondo 2M and one detail that is just too blurred for recognition is the small figure in the total plate count.
Does it read 9x10/9 or 9x10/5
Can you help me on that ??

[redzed]

Hi Igor,

A more legible version of the product sheet is in this thread.
http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6457

Your comments on this particular product would be appreciated by me and several other Canadians on this forum.

[Igor Duńczyk]

Hi Red,

Actually, it WAS the more legible 2M data sheet version I was referring to...
I just can´t read the small digit which could be a nine or a five.
Can you check it?

From what I could read The MMIS Mondostart cultures looks allright to me.
Just wondering if MMIS produce these cultures by themselves or they blend and pack strains bought somewhere else

The composition of the Mondo 2M resembles that of Chr.Hansens TRADI-302 or SACCO Lyocarni LBM-02.

According to the data sheet 2M seems to be a traditional culture (meaning: the strains haven´t been boosted to work faster).
Given your steady hand with the fermentation process I´d say, just stick to the traditional cultures and forget about the fast.

How was your own experience with the pH drop of the 2M. Did you check how long it took to get down under pH 5,3 ?

Secondly: GREAT congrats to the very high quality you achieved at your first go at fermented meats. Amazingly successfull it seems, as so much could go wrong.
The curing color looking almost ideal and no dry rim on the goose sopressata. WOW!

As for the Coppa I am curious to know if you managed to evade rancidity or if it was felt after some time.
But I guess with that look the Coppa was probably all gone within a few days

As for your Sopressata recipe I appreciate to see that you keep dextrose dosage on 3 gr pr. kg. which is just enough to initiate the activity of the culture but too little to give way to excess acidity formation - which I guess that we all want to avoid
How was your own impression of the level of acidity, tastewise ?

[redzed]

Hi Igor,

I checked my hard copy and the number you are looking for is 9.

As far as the coppa that I made back in February, no rancidy detected after 6 months of hanging in my curing chamber. And we actually finished it a few days ago, as an accompaniment to a raclette dinner we shared with friends while camping. It turned out like a good wine, the longer it spent in the curing chamber, the more complex and flavourful it became. Another coppa was started about a month ago, and will taste it in a couple of weeks. And of course I did not use any starter cultures in preparing it. I still stand by my position that it is not necessary to use it in dry cured solid muscle meats. Your explanation on the Polish site might have some merit, but I have never had any solid muscle meats spoil. And the starter culture does not enter the meat anyway, unless it is pumped or tumbled. If you do that, do you not also increase the water content of the meat thereby increasing the risk of spoilage? Using bacteria might be useful in commercial applications where the objective is to maintain consistency of taste in the product, but I am not convinced that it provides any benefit for the hobbyist.

Thanks for the analysis of Mondostart 2M. I will continue to use it, but my next few products will be inoculated with Chr. Hansen.

[Igor Duńczyk]

Dzien dobry Red

Glad to hear that your coppa turned out right. I asked because I have experienced rancidity or quick oxidation in coppa that was also well hung and matured for at least two months. Factors can be many. When it turns out right it can, just like you say, become like a good wine developing rich flavours with age.

However a staphyloccocus culture may be a help for those who have experienced rancidity problems, as it will trigger enzymatical processes which a.o. reduces the risc of rancidity.

Surely injection or vacuum tumbling (not likely to be at hand at the hobbyist) are the most effective methods to apply cultures into the meat. Spoilage by injection is less likely as you simultaneously inject curing and salt, but it´s a bit like crossing the river for water as you prolong the drying out phase by adding more fluid to the muscle.

But there is one feasible alternative for the home producer, and that is vacuum bag curing. The vacuum will facilitate the merging of the bacteria into the pores and openings present the meat, and once the bag is sealed there is less chance for unwanted outside bacteria to spoil the picture.
Perhaps somebody in this forum already posted a thread on this topic ?

Which Chr.Hansen cultures do you intend to use next time? (curious )

Did you watch the nice video on Schwarzwald Hams: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiHeHrwgofk
Actually I found it on the Polish site

[redzed]

Hey Igor!

The two cultures that I will be using are F-LC and T-SPX. And I have to get moving on that since they are nearing expiry!

Your suggestion to vacuum pack the meat during the initial curing process in order to facilitate the bacteria to permeate the solid muscle is interesting. What I have been able to discern from my readings on the subject to date, is that the meat pores are smaller than the bacteria cells and therefore the bacteria remains on the surface. Is this not correct? If so, how can vacuum packing, which to me does no more than seal the meat in an airtight environment, change that?

And, I have another question. This is to do with the safety of working with the cultures. Is there any danger in inhaling, ingesting starter culture bacteria, or having it enter your system through a cut in your finger? I know that we are talking about different strains, but I wonder about this when I see Staphylococcus as an ingredient. Is there that much difference between carnosus and xylosus?

[Igor Duńczyk]

EXCUSE me the delay Red - haven´t been on the thread for a while!

"...the meat pores are smaller than the bacteria cells and therefore the bacteria remains on the surface. Is this not correct?"

I admit that this question calls for some higher biochemical expertice than I can muster. I´ll try to catch up on this.
However the "remaining on the surface" argument could be used on salt too - was it not for the fact that the osmosis caused by salt addition makes meat cells release water molecules and absorb salt "down to the bone" literally speaking. So I would presume that the bacteria follow the same path.

"Is there any danger in inhaling, ingesting starter culture bacteria, or having it enter your system through a cut in your finger?"

Not that I know of. The strains used in starter cultures are non-pathogenic. And as for ingesting our small friends I´ve done the test on myself. Both with water dissolved culture and the white powder itself (and don´t count on that effect ) No harm done though I vastly prefer the taste of the finished product
Remember that the millions of cells contained in a sachet represent just a tiny fragment of the billions of very diverse bacteria that we carry inside.

As for Staphylococcus:
Yes there is a difference between carnosus and xylosus but not drastically so. In combination (which is often used by Chr.Hansen and SACCO) they will complement each other.

But, if for instance you would like to try to cure whole elements/muscles without the use of nitrite but instead resort to nitrate rich vegetable juice concentrates (extracted from a. o. celery or mangold) then you should use a high concentration of Staphylococcus carnosus only. This just mentioned to inspire those who are concerned about the nitrite issue....