listeria in salami

Igor Duńczyk
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Sun Sep 22, 2013 23:58

Witaj Panie Andrzej! Jestem pół polakem (urodził się w Danii),

It is so inspiring to read your postings. You have a very direct way of expressing many important points about what natural taste is about -and why natural taste is often destroyed in a modern world where consumers are cried their ears full about "product safety" while their health is simultaneously destroyed by meat that has been stuffed with antibiotics, or various kinds of preservatives and because the slightly contaminating bacteria flora that serves to learn the organism how to build up resistance is eliminated because of overtly (and I would add: perverse) cleanliness.

I an personally in no doubt that one very important reason behind the good taste of traditional polish meat products (especially before 1989 when the polish meat industry was still not influenced by "western technology") is because there was a immensly rich wild bacteria flora in all of the meat processing factories.
I visited many of them just few years after the wall fell when they were still very "backwards" as compared with western standard, but boy oh boy did they often make products of an incomparable rich taste. This great traditional taste gradually became more bland and indifferent the more westernized and "clean" the facilities of producers became.

Today a growing number of consumers in Poland cries out (and event wants to pay) for "old style traditional" products. But it´s too late to turn back the clock; pig breeding methods have changed, fodder is more streamlined giving a blander and less nuanced taste and the diversity of wild bacteria in the slaughter houses and at the meat processors have been sorrowly reduced. Just to mention a few examples of how modern methods have destroyed the quality standards of the "good old days".

Still, the Poles are fortunately still a bit more erratic and haphazard in many ways (and I mean this as being a big advantage!) than compared with Germans, whose average meat products are becoming still more faceless and anonymous in taste.
Why...? Because everything is too damned clean and perfect in Germany. Individuallity has been sacrified for the sake of efficiency and "producty safety" :cry:

And the taste situation is even worse here in Denmark where we never had any deeply felt traditions for the art of sausage making, in wich the Germans excell despite the fact that their raw materials and the way they handle them makes many products as boring as a rainy november afternoon.... (Przepraszam! Wystarczy teraz z ta stara walka z Niemcami :wink: )

So, I am sure, Andrzej, that if I come over to Durham one day I will ask you for a piece of the sausage that you have made with the sage which the dog pissed on - I am sure it will have a more interesting taste :mrgreen: And for all other who read this: Remember that there should always be a litte truth in a joke!

Now a question: for your Funghi Salami recipe you write Mold 600/starter culture (for the outside of the casing - right?)
But which starter culture do you use for the acidifying/fermentation process ?

Best Greetings and
Życzy ci miłego dnia!
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
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Post by redzed » Mon Sep 23, 2013 08:34

Thanks for the advice Andrzej, will definately take it into account. And yes, I'm Polish but have lived in Canada since I was nine years old, so that would make it, let's see, more than five decades ! But, many years ago I did spend one year in Poland on an academic exchange where I was a research fellow at the Warsaw University. I have managed to maintain a reasonable level of spoken and written Polish but currently live in a community where I don't have too many opportunities to speak Polish and my wife and children also don't know the language.

I would love make the pheasant recipe but don't have access to them. There are dozens of California quails running around in the neighbourhood and they make a mess in my garden, but I'm sure that my neighbours would report me and my wife divorce me if I snagged and cooked a pair. I have been looking at many ways to use the chanterelles and today I marinated about 5lbs and made a superb soup using another 3lbs. Tomorrow I think I will have an omelette with a good handful.

Will be preparing the Chanterelle Salami tomorrow, along with a spicy no-name salami, pepperoni and a summer sausage with cheese. The last three will contain 30% wild goose breasts that I have an unlimited supply of. So It's going to be a busy one tomorrow!
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Post by northwall » Mon Sep 23, 2013 21:42

Hi Igor,

in answer to your question....the starter culture is t-spx.im not sure what you can buy where you are. The culture is actually danish, funnily enough. You add that as part of the meat mix, not outside....its a part of yr sausage mix. The cultures vary but they all add lactic acid which lowers the pH value with time, along with salt/sugar and conditions. You want HIGH acid content.....its very important. Low acid is dangerous. Also, make ure you dont have air pockets in meat. Bochulism is very nearly impossible to detect or see but is very dangerous......it loves contained pockets or bubbles. (if yo are worried about acid, add a touch of whitewine, a spoon of vinegar etc.thats a good fix and will make youi sleep better)

I used to go to kopenhagen a lot as a young boy, i knew it well. Denmark suffers from horrible sterile obsession...much like germany. Most of the food is awful, not in concept, but in execution. Its a shame because there are some nic ething s in the culture...but the crazy police ruin it. The poles are getting that way too, as you said. Luckily the poles are very stubborn, and funnily enough dont like being told whta to do, so whilst its not as good as i was, it still hangs on, just!!!

Lets all move to poland and start a cured meat empire......aaaaaaaaaaaaah what a nice thougH!!!


Let e know howit goes........mushroom salami rocks!!
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Post by northwall » Mon Sep 23, 2013 21:46

just to clarify.that starter culture must goIN to the meat mix.......youll see the mold appeatring after a few days , white chalk dust.Its very pricey, you only need maximum one teaspoon per kg.... i use half a teaspoon...bsically 1 gramme....so maybe even less than a teaspoon.....
Igor Duńczyk
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Wed Sep 25, 2013 00:53

northwall wrote: You want HIGH acid content.....its very important. Low acid is dangerous.
Hi Andrzej,

NO I strongly disagree: I DON´T want high ACID CONTENT because it will cover the good taste of the meat (Danish salami are nothing but sourness and acidity).

What I want is LOW pH VALUE and that is NOT the same as high acid content.

You can achieve a low pH in your salami without getting too much acidity in the taste if you use a starter culture which produces a mild acid (like the pediococcus in SPX do) and you add a reasonably low amount of dextrose : 3 to 4 grams pr kg mince. PH will surely drop below 5,3 and probably end up at 5,0. This pH level will in combination with nitrite/nitrate and a salt content of app. 2,2% to 2,8% keep Botulism at a safe distance -especially when WA will be reduced after drying.

High Acid content is what you risk to get if you use:
1) more than 5 gr dextrose/sugar pr kg mince.
2) a fast starter culture with a more aggresive lactic bacteria strain like Curvatus or Plantarum. However, acid production (and the taste of the acid) will also be dependent on which Curvatus or Plantarum strain as there are many different variations.

Looking forward to your comment!
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
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Post by northwall » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:52

i thinki you took me too literally.i dndt mean like vinegar, simply that lactic acid, whichever strain is what kills off bacteria and unless you are very very skilled it would be risky for a nomral person to try the game...you obviously seem to know a fair bit about it, however most of the curing world errs on the side of caution!
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:57

Witaj Andrzej,

Yes I took you too literally - with a little evil intend :twisted: because I would like to make aware that "high acidity" itself is not security enough. I have experienced factory made sliced pepperoni that were very sour and acidious but they turned mouldy after a week because water activity was too high. Or contrary: I have tasted many salami with a high pH that even after a long storage didn´t turn bad because they gradually dried out, leaving no place for contaminating bacteria.

Also it doesn´t hurt you to be a little bit more precise: If there is so much Lactic acid present that it "kills of bacteria" as you say the concentration will be so high that it may also send your taste buds into the grave as well :oops:

The lactic bacteria merely lowers pH so it becomes increasingly difficult for contaminating bacteria to thriwe in the meat thus reducing their growth.
But in order to "kill off" you need lactic bacteria strains (like certain curvatus or sakei) that produce bacteriocin which serves like a "poison" towards Listeria.
Some starter cultures have this feature. T-SPX doesn´t (but still it´s a good culture).

You mentioned that you had to throw out a batch of soppressata because they turned grey. Did you find an explanation why this happened?
Also: do you use ascorbic acid or (better) sodium ascorbate in your recipes ?
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
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Post by northwall » Sun Sep 29, 2013 22:20

Czesc Pan,

yes I agree i should be more precise....but then again, the lactic acid being relatively high (as per dose i use)doesnt seem to be a problem for the greatest minds in charcuterie around the globe.Maybe 'high' was a bad term and 'present' would be a better one..not sure. THey, not me, state that it should be there and that it kills bacteria (listeria included) The authorities also agree. The taste of good quality meats, from animals and treated with care, is not disputed . I have never heard of someone making good meat into charcuterie with the methods used by marianski and co being anything like what you say. You are bickering with me, but i am agreeing with marianski and group........thus you are challenging a collective consensus. I have to admit, that i have not eaten the charcuterie you speak of. Even 'rough' french , italian charcuterie, let alone british from the supermarket does not taste as you describe. I would be interested in trying it just to see. I must say that danish produce, in my experince, is prettty grim. Even artisinal stuff ive had has been very ordinary. I might add that a good underlying sharpness is an underlying feature of italian and french/med charcuterie and they are some of the best at it, in the view of the world at large. It is well documented. I like that kind of charcuterie. The polish and hungarians also use a good dose of acid in their meats, though not quite as much. Both are superb. Beyond awful wholesale crap salamis, i just dont really see your point or what you are trying to say.

I might add that you say t-spx doesnt kill off. Well i am not as clued up as you. However, considering that the 'group' all recommend t-spx as a safe culture and effective, you are , again, challenging conventional knowledge, wisdom and advice. Maybe you are right, but i would imagine that Marianksi and co want to be sure what they advise and also that they know what they are talking about. If not, i would be interested in knowing how and why they are wrong. I think ill go with their view,personally.

Your evil 'intend' displays a need to ignite debate so that you can flout your superior scientific knowledge to mine....and im not sure you are even correct on that score.I was only offering advice in case you were a starter curer and it was genuine. Thats all really.

On another note. I never did find out why with the sopp. I think it was because the fermentation/initial high blast, didnt work..namely it never got going. Last night i also noted that marianki says never goabove 24c with t-spx....whereas that idiot ruhlman recommends 28 with same culture. Adam must have a reason for stating what he did and im guessing the yank is slack and a bit technically lazy/wrong. That may be why it didnt work because recently ive been fermentng at higher temps, as a pose to before when i was at lower 20's.
Igor Duńczyk
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Mon Sep 30, 2013 00:40

Witaj ponownie!

Thank you for your thorough answer - I appreciate. But I don´t want you to muisunderstand me! I am not trying to play wiser than Marianski & co or the collective consensus.
I just get a little bit afraid when somebody states loudly that "the more acidity - the more safe you get" because it is a half-truth.

Perhaps we have a different conception about the term "acidity". Personally I absolutely don´t like the danish style style salami where you only have salty sour/acidious taste with some smoke to it. Compared to this, an average hungarian (or slovakian or croatian or romanian) Winter Salami will be much (VERY much) less acidious.
So I don´t understand what you mean when you say "polish and hungarians also use a good dose of acid in their meats" - Please then give me some examples of what you think about? Because to my best of knowlegde most polish and hungarian sausages (both fermented or cooked) are NOT characterized by acidity but far more by a pronounced "real" meat taste.

Do you know the romanian "Salami de Sibiu" ? If so; how do you like it?

And I don´t have an intention to flout superior scientific knowledge, but I do like to see when contributors to this forum base their arguments on the basis of facts rather than assumtions or on "collective consensus" which often is like the lemmings (the animal): The majority just run after a leader who seems to be right until he falls over the cliff edge and all the others run after him, into the abyss...

So, stating this, who says that Marianski is right about not using T-SPX above 24 degrees??
Let me tell you this fact: The bacteria strains in T-SPX can work up till 42 degrees and will be most effective at 38 degrees. But of different reasons it would be a shame for the quality of the product to use T-SPX at this temperature because you will get the most tastefull results when using a temperature somewhere between 22 and 26 degrees.
So is Marianski wrong or unknowing? Or is he just "practically minded" by not wanting users of his recipes to throw themself into unnecessary experiments with temperature ??
At 38 degrees you also risk that the fat starts turning soft - almost melting. It can ruin the fermentation process....

As for the "kill-off" I admit that indirectly you kill the unwanted bacteria when you make circumstances (the meat mass) too difficult for them to live in (by a low WA, a low pH and gradually higher salt concentration) but this is exclusion - not direct "killing". And in that respect T-SPX is usually a safe culture - but it will not be able to cope with a.e. Listeria which may survive in a sausage made with T-SPX.

Did you try to work with GdL ?
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
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