Sopressata curing SOUR smell

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NicolasR
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Sopressata curing SOUR smell

Post by NicolasR » Sat Dec 14, 2013 16:04

Hi

I am new to this forum and to curing salami. I am actually making a batch of sopressata and Hungarian smoked salami from Ruhlmans charcuterie book. I have followed the recipe closely. My salami are hanging in a curing chamber which has been pretty constant at 13-15 Celsius (about 55 F) and 65-70 % humidity.

My question is: 5 days into curing, I have absolutely no mold growing on the salami and they smell pretty sour...almost like cheap, white wine, with a hint of ammonia.

I can understand why the Hungarian smoked salami doesn't have mold on it, but I am concerned about the (not smoked) sopressata.


Any thoughts about the smell and lack of mold would be really appreciated.

Thanks.
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Dec 14, 2013 16:12

Smell of ammonia is as it should be. Some chemical reactions at work there - CW is better to answer the why's on this.

Lack of mold could be a good thing cause you could have a black slime on it.

Did you inoculate with anything? If not then your chamber may not have any spores in it. Keep in mind many chambers or curing rooms already have huge populations of the good stuff present and inoculation isn't necessary. I'd rather have no mold than some native questionable molds so this tells me you are running a clean operation if you didn't inoculate.
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Post by NicolasR » Sat Dec 14, 2013 16:21

Thanks Butterbean

I did not inoculate with anything. Would it be too late to do it now ? I heard that hanging a moldy salami in there could help ?
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Dec 14, 2013 16:39

Yes, that would work for the outside mold. You can also simply spray the inside of your chamber and the sausages with a solution with the inoculant in it. I have done that. The more you make the easier and more plentiful your good spores will become.

Personally I think people get too concerned over mold and its color. If I can find a picture in my computer I'll post it and you will have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Biggest thing is for the salami not to dry out too fast. Mold helps with this but is not absolutely necessary but when you have that fine white mold on the meat it gives you the mental assurance that it is working right but not necessary. Key is getting the acidity drop and the water drop in the right time frame. Or that is how I see it anyway.
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Post by NicolasR » Sat Dec 14, 2013 22:45

Thanks !

I hanged a "good" salami in there. I guess I'll know in a couple weeks if everything turns out fine !

Another thing: my humidifier in the chamber never actually had to run because of the humidity from the salami. I'm thinking it should start to run as the meat dries an produce less humidity ?
Is this normal ?
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Dec 17, 2013 07:13

Hi NicolasR!
Molds are aerobic. Some folks have stated on other boards that molds will grow beneath the surface. They absolutely will not. Any High School biology or chemistry textbook will reaffirm this. In many instances, molds get the blame for the second type of bacteria - the spoilage microorganism. White molds on sausage (Penicillium nagliovense or chrysangenum or Penicillium roqueforti or camemberti on cheese) have always been seen as desirable growths as they help to moderate the drying process by preventing oxygen from reaching deep into the sausage. Molds also oxidize lactic acid as well as other acids. This action produces ammonia which just happens to increase the pH.
Now don't be too tough on molds. As they consume oxygen, they produce catalase, which reduces lipid oxidation and rancidity of fat. Last but not least, they metabolize lactic acid to increase pH.

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Post by ursula » Mon Jun 30, 2014 01:16

Ten days ago I made a Hungarian salami (smoked now for 4 days, a Milano with herbs, one without, and a Danish-type (CW's recipe). They had a good PH drop to 5.05/5.10 after 3 days fermenting and have been hanging in the chamber at a well-regulated temp of 55 - 60 degrees for several days. Have had some trouble with humidity, which tends to creep up over 90 unless I open the chamber ( which I do about every half hour) There is no humidifier, because the meat itself is keeping the humidity up there. I have two very small fans inside the chamber, but they aren't doing too much to keep the humidity in check.
There is no ammonia smell, as some have reported, but the smell is somewhat visceral, very hard to describe, and I wouldn't be inclined to taste anything that smelled quite like that.
Weight loss after 10 days is at 15 - 16%, which seems fairly on track, perhaps a bit fast?
The danish-type and one of the Milanos have spots of creamy white mould, but for the last 3 days they also have some hairy mould. I wouldn't describe it as white exactly, but possibly more greyish white.
I would have posted a pic, but I've wiped it all off for the third day in a row, as it is different from the whitish cream stuff, which is more flaky/scaley.
No doubt it will be back tomorrow, and I'll take a photo.
Perhaps the smell in the chamber is normal? Being new to all this process, I am treating it as a bit of an experiment, and keeping notes as I go, but I have to say, the only thing that smells edible is the smoked Hungarian.
Others' experiences?
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Post by redzed » Mon Jun 30, 2014 16:02

Hey Ursula! Don't panic yet. Take care of that mould and post some pics. Your problem just might be lack of ventilation and air exchange. A fan in the unit just moving the air around will not do it. But if you open the door a couple of times a day you should be OK. I had nasty moulds when I first initiated my chamber, but now the good moulds have taken residence and I rarely get anything but white powder. Hang in there girl!
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Post by ursula » Tue Jul 01, 2014 00:54

Thank you Red.
Very reassuring.
So my understanding is that if it's hairy, best to get rid of it. But the little white pinpricky ones are the good guys.
Just not sure if the flaky creamy one might be a yeast,since I think I read that yeasts often appear before the mould,which tends to take over. Does a yeast create any aroma?
Would I perhaps be better off removing it if in doubt?
I'll post some pics later today when I've done my end of financial year stuff.
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Post by ursula » Tue Jul 01, 2014 02:51

I've just binned my Milano with herbs. There was the hairy grey stuff which was easy to remove,but the whole thing was slimy and the creamy scaley stuff was thick, and hard to get off. The casing lifted off the salami as I cleaned it, but the smell turned my stomach.I cut it open to have a look, and it actually looked ok. Very soft, a bit mushy, and the salami meat itself smelt reasonable. But I didn't want to chance it. Something that smells that off can't be good for you!
A bit hasty perhaps, but I'll try to salvage the Danish type. I was able to remove all the mould from it without causing too much casing damage. It doesn't smell as bad.
I think my big issue is humidity and not having the right flora in my chamber. We can't get Bactoferm 600 here, so I'll have to buy an authentic salami from a market, disinfect the chamber, and then hang it in there awhile.
Meanwhile, I'll see if my other salamis and my bresaolas can be salvaged with manual air exchange and lots of vinegar.
Will post pics when I have downloaded.
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Post by ursula » Tue Jul 01, 2014 06:10

I apologise in advance for the long blog.
Okay, so this is my fermentation/curing/drying chamber. I cleaned it with detergent, then with bleach and finally wiped everything down with vinegar for good measure. This is the first hanging of the four different salamis.
They were fermented for 72 hours at 68 degrees, 90 -85% humidity, achieving a PH drop of 5.0 - 5.1. Temperature was easily maintained with the Auberins temp and humidity controller, with a globe as a heat source. Humidity was more difficult; you can see the humidifier but the humidity was always too high, so eventually I removed it. Even then the salamis themselves kept shooting the humidity into the 90s. The salami on the right was smoked for 4 days during the process after the first 48 hours.
Image

Controls were set to 55 to 60 degrees, and was kept pretty constant, but humidity was erratic. Putting in a computer fan achieved little. To effect air exchange it was a manual opening of the chamber several times a day, but at night it was always too high - 93/94%.By day 5 there was quite a bit of mould formed on the 3 salamis. Mostly there was a creamy white scaly bit formed at different parts of each salami, and I thought I was on the right track. It was followed in the next days by a grey hairy patch in various places, and some small white pinprick points. This, I thought, is probably not desirable, so I cleaned all the hairy stuff off with a vinegar water mix. There was also an unpleasant smell coming from the chamber. My later thoughts are that perhaps the creamy stuff may be a yeast, since it appeared first (?) and wonder if that is what makes the unpleasant odour.
The salamis were also clammy and a bit slimy, so I cleaned up what didn`t look right and let them dry briefly inside. I left the creamy stuff on, and the white pinprick size mould. Image


TO hedge my bets I gave one of the Milano salamis a day`s smoke.

The last three photos were taken this morning. You can see the scaly cream stuff on the casing as well as some fine white mould, which is probably what I want in there. There is also the grey hairy monster which has now migrated to my bresaolas. You can also see the hairy stuff. And the smell! Phew! The creamy stuff was hard to remove, and was lifting the casing off. I decided to give up on the Milano and cut it open. The inside actually didn`t smell that bad, and the consistency of the meat quite ok. Perhaps a bit mushy? But the outside stank. I can`t bring myself to eat something which smells so off, and I don`t want to see the inside of a hospital just yet, so I tossed it in the bin.
Then I got it out of the bin because it followed me everywhere, and started a roaring fire with it.
The Danish I have salvaged thus far; it was easier to clean up, and I have washed and dipped it in vinegar. It`s in the dining room drying and the chamber now smells good.
Maybe I`ll put it back in. Maybe not. Image

Image

Image


Lessons learned: After this lot is finished, I will thoroughly disinfect the chamber, find a better way to manage air exchange and buy a real salami from a market and hang it in there. And then have another go.
What a pity we can`lt get Bactoferm here!
Ursula
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Post by redzed » Tue Jul 01, 2014 15:47

Hard to judge Ursula but I don't think you should pitch anything yet. You seem to have some good mould on the salami, just go after the bad ones. Lower the humidity and keeo exchanging the air. Or wipe them clean with a warm water salt solution and cold smoke for 8 to 10 hours. That will prevent all mould growth for a few weeks and will allow your salami to mature. Not all salami has to have a cover of mould. Hanging a commercial salami with mould might work, but why not do some backslopping as I demonstrated successfully a couple of weeks ago?

And as far as that last pic, what the heck did you use to cut that salami?
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Post by Bob K » Tue Jul 01, 2014 16:26

I think you have several options with a small chamber to lower the humidity but without cutting vents you could also leave the door slightly ajar or I think they make small dehumidifiers. (I believe the Auburn unit can also be set to dehumidify)

I had the same problem (high) humidity in a small chamber and just cut vents.

Without access to commercial mold I would try the backslopping method from a store bought salami to get the good stuff growing.

There are also some unique odors produced by your chamber, especially during the beginning of curing and drying so don't think all is lost.
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Post by ursula » Wed Jul 02, 2014 01:36

Thank you Red and Bob for your encouraging words and suggestions.
I have found a temporary solution while I reassess my options. It turns out my bathroom has a constant humidity of 80% and the temperature fluctuates between 55 and 60 degrees. It is winter here and I like a cold house! There is also no problem with airflow. So I am cleaning up my bresaolas and salamis and moving them there until I solve the problems with my setup.
Bob, the idea of cracking open the door of the fridge is a really good one and one I came to over the last days. It helps, but at night the critters come out to play! Possums, wombats, foxes, so no option then.
I will completely clean out and disinfect the chamber again, and seek out a genuine salami with the right mould cover, and backslop as both of you suggested. Then spray it into the chamber with the next lot I try. That sounds like the best options. May take a while to find a real salami as I'm pretty much out in the sticks, but we'll see.
Also contacted CHR Hansen to plead with them to offer a solution for us in Oz.
And yes, Red, I was a bit heavy-handed with my knife. (The meat was a bit sloppy and I wasn't very fussy)
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Post by ursula » Sun Jul 06, 2014 08:27

Progress report on my remaining salamis.
One end of the Danish smelled awful so I cut it off and retied the rest.
Day 16:Salami Milano has had a weight loss of 29.7%
Hungarian salami has had a weight loss of 27%
Is this a bit fast?
The Milano has a new covering of white filmy mould, but I don't really trust it; it adds an aroma to the salami that I'm just not sure of.
Meanwhile I am planning to make another 4 of different types after disinfecting the chamber, and this time I will smoke them all and be done with the question of mould until I can achieve another solution.
Ursula
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