Have gone back through my best reference manual (The art of...) in an attempt to get an answer to this but I still haven't gotten a clear answer to a nagging question.
In earlier posts I had indicated I had a curing room built this year in part of my basement - nothing huge but definitely much larger than a fridge setup.
With it I have no issues keeping steady and high humidity. Some natural airflow takes place very slowly, humidifiers kick on for short periods and all is good. To give an idea of how little the humidifiers run I have not had to fill my crane in 3 weeks and it is close to empty but not there yet. Room is about 400 cubic ft (11 cubic meters) or so. However I had never given much thought to airflow since using my kegerators I would just crack the door a bit as needed to lower the humidity and everything was working great.
Based on everything I have read the reference to fans seems to indicate they are used to remove excess humidity, I haven't seen anything indicate they are required for any other purpose - I fully understand they also help speed up drying to some degree but is it needed. So my million dollar question for the group - if I have a setup that maintains constant humidity around 75% with very little air exchange other than knowing the room isn't air tight - is airflow still required for a successful outcome?
Importance of air circulation?
Importance of air circulation?
Occupation?? Part time Butcher, Chef, Microbiologist, Scientist and Meteorologist – does what pays the bills really matter?
Eric
Eric
There's a fundamental principal here:
(In) - (Out) + (Accumulation) = 0
If your accumulation is zero (it's staying at 75% and temperature and pressure are constant), and if you like those conditions, then- - great. No problem for now.
I suspect, though, that the walls are helping to buffer conditions. You don't mention if temperature is constant or not, but it's probably pretty stable in a basement. (I'm guessing a roughly 5' x 10' x 8' high enclosure.) Have you sealed the walls, or are they wooden or sheet rock or some other water-permeable material? If not, the walls are probably giving off or taking up moisture. Undoubtedly they are also absorbing odors given off by the meats, which is bad and will ultimately lead to ugly consequences. Best to seal all surfaces well.
Which leads to my next question: can you CHANGE the humidity? If you want to lower it to, say, 50%, at the same temperature, can you? (You're right, an inlet or outlet fan is used to remove excess humidity, as opposed to merely circulating the air.) If you can't lower humidity much, that tells me that either the outside air is too humid to allow you to go lower, or that the walls are giving off water vapor. Basements tend to be damp for a number of reasons. This could lead to problems.
You can remove water from incoming air with a dehumidifier (which works by cooling down the air to drop moisture out, then heating it back up.) Some of our forum members do this. Others, who live in drier climates, are more fortunate and don't have to.
As far as increasing humidity, it sounds like you have that part figured out. Congratulations.
Please let us know how you do. We are all constantly learning. What a great hobby!
(In) - (Out) + (Accumulation) = 0
If your accumulation is zero (it's staying at 75% and temperature and pressure are constant), and if you like those conditions, then- - great. No problem for now.
I suspect, though, that the walls are helping to buffer conditions. You don't mention if temperature is constant or not, but it's probably pretty stable in a basement. (I'm guessing a roughly 5' x 10' x 8' high enclosure.) Have you sealed the walls, or are they wooden or sheet rock or some other water-permeable material? If not, the walls are probably giving off or taking up moisture. Undoubtedly they are also absorbing odors given off by the meats, which is bad and will ultimately lead to ugly consequences. Best to seal all surfaces well.
Which leads to my next question: can you CHANGE the humidity? If you want to lower it to, say, 50%, at the same temperature, can you? (You're right, an inlet or outlet fan is used to remove excess humidity, as opposed to merely circulating the air.) If you can't lower humidity much, that tells me that either the outside air is too humid to allow you to go lower, or that the walls are giving off water vapor. Basements tend to be damp for a number of reasons. This could lead to problems.
You can remove water from incoming air with a dehumidifier (which works by cooling down the air to drop moisture out, then heating it back up.) Some of our forum members do this. Others, who live in drier climates, are more fortunate and don't have to.
As far as increasing humidity, it sounds like you have that part figured out. Congratulations.
Please let us know how you do. We are all constantly learning. What a great hobby!
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-
Igor Duńczyk
- Passionate
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 23:41
- Location: Croatia
Beautiful question Eric 
Having checked in Werner Freys indispensable "Die sichere Fleischwarenherstellung" (Hans Holzmann Verlag 1983) it´s a matter of transporting the excess humidity out of the chamber simultaneously with the migration of water molecules from inside of the fermenting sausages, so that you don´t "block" the water from escaping once it starts disconnecting from the proteins of the meat fibre.
After all what we all want is that the fermentation process isn´t dragged out for ages, as prolonged high water activity may also give way to the growth of unwanted bacteria that will very often be present but usually don´t have a chance to reach cell counts that will make the red alert lamps pulsating because they are stopped by salt concentration and lack of moisture. Too much excess moisture may also make promote the likeliness of unwanted mold formating on the suaface, but if you belong to those who incubate with 600 or likewise it should not be a major problem.
So, as Frey say, the ideal ventilation is that of a stepless regulation so you can lead out exactly as much excess humidity as needed during the given phase of fermentation, thus securing a hairfine balance between the humidity in the air which should always be exactly so high that the casing won´t dry out on the outside while at the same time allowing a maximum of moisture to migrate through the casing from the inside! (The Germans are always suckers for MAX CONTROL).
Q: So what is the great trap or pitfall of circulation?
A: The placement of the source (fan) and its ability to distribute an even and preferably slow airflow around all the sausages in the given confinement.
If. a.e. the fan is placed at one side of the room you risk that those sausages hanging next to it will dry out on the side nearest to the fan where circulation is at its strongest.
Whereas those furthest away may end up with too much moisture around them, dragging out the drying out proces. However all this should be easy to control in a small frigde´style fermentation chamber.
Also, too much ventilation is likely to blow away the moisture or lower the humidity, causing the drying out of the casings.
You can make a test with a piece of writing pad size paper, hanging it alongside or between your salami: If it is evidently moving and waving then you need to turn down the fan until paper movement is restricted to a point where it can still but with difficulty, be registered by the eye.
However Eric, if you did not experience problems with salami or other fermented goodies from your basement fermentation room until now, I don´t see a reason why it should cause you sleepless nights
Having checked in Werner Freys indispensable "Die sichere Fleischwarenherstellung" (Hans Holzmann Verlag 1983) it´s a matter of transporting the excess humidity out of the chamber simultaneously with the migration of water molecules from inside of the fermenting sausages, so that you don´t "block" the water from escaping once it starts disconnecting from the proteins of the meat fibre.
After all what we all want is that the fermentation process isn´t dragged out for ages, as prolonged high water activity may also give way to the growth of unwanted bacteria that will very often be present but usually don´t have a chance to reach cell counts that will make the red alert lamps pulsating because they are stopped by salt concentration and lack of moisture. Too much excess moisture may also make promote the likeliness of unwanted mold formating on the suaface, but if you belong to those who incubate with 600 or likewise it should not be a major problem.
So, as Frey say, the ideal ventilation is that of a stepless regulation so you can lead out exactly as much excess humidity as needed during the given phase of fermentation, thus securing a hairfine balance between the humidity in the air which should always be exactly so high that the casing won´t dry out on the outside while at the same time allowing a maximum of moisture to migrate through the casing from the inside! (The Germans are always suckers for MAX CONTROL
).Q: So what is the great trap or pitfall of circulation?
A: The placement of the source (fan) and its ability to distribute an even and preferably slow airflow around all the sausages in the given confinement.
If. a.e. the fan is placed at one side of the room you risk that those sausages hanging next to it will dry out on the side nearest to the fan where circulation is at its strongest.
Whereas those furthest away may end up with too much moisture around them, dragging out the drying out proces. However all this should be easy to control in a small frigde´style fermentation chamber.
Also, too much ventilation is likely to blow away the moisture or lower the humidity, causing the drying out of the casings.
You can make a test with a piece of writing pad size paper, hanging it alongside or between your salami: If it is evidently moving and waving then you need to turn down the fan until paper movement is restricted to a point where it can still but with difficulty, be registered by the eye.
However Eric, if you did not experience problems with salami or other fermented goodies from your basement fermentation room until now, I don´t see a reason why it should cause you sleepless nights
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
Igor The Dane
Appreciate the insight and depth of answers from you both...
el DUcko - room is a bit longer and thinner but you got the idea. It is studded out, covered in green board (for those not in the States drywall that is mold resistant) -painted but not sure if that is acrylic or latex.
Temperature in the basement is relatively stable, dependent to a small degree on outside temps. At this time of the year it stays consistent in the 48-52 range. With the door closed and very minimal running of the humidifiers 75% (or higher) humidity is very easy to attain. Although naturally humid a good portion of my basement is finished so the natural conditions have humidity that is much too low. On changing the humidity, yes pretty easily - if I wanted to lower it just a small crack in the door for a short time will drop it as the room is situated very close to my home heating unit (heat pump, not furnace) which creates air movement around it. To increase, as stated above very easy.
Igor - your answer confirms about what I was thinking. Process is working now but I'm early into it. With door closed for a prolonged period the ammonia smell becomes strong and initially I had been cracking the door. Unfortunately I now know (this is a follow to another post on my slow weight loss) after cutting into my oldest batch case hardening was apparent. Since it was difficult for me to believe with just a small opening in the door (2 inches / 5cm) I put a second humidity sensor down there near the door. Seems the humidity levels near the door dropped into the low to mid 60's even with the other end of the room still in the low 70's. The humidifier and humidistat were at the end opposite the door. So about a 10%-15% difference in humidity across the length of about 10 feet. Now expect I'll be trashing 30+ pounds of salami. Good news is that the coppa are doing fine as I have always found them more forgiving and I've got over 80lbs going (36 kilos).
Where I am now is a humidifier at each end of the room into the humidistat, humidity much more even throughout the room. Have a low speed computer fan on order that I am debating installing to cycle on just once or twice a day for 30 minutes or an hour to refresh/recycle the air. Although it appears it isn't a necessity it will keep the ammonia smell from building up, get some fresh air in and may assist in drying a little bit. I'm thinking I would place it at the bottom of the chamber as the salamis hang towards the top and middle of the chamber and at the end away from the door which would pull air in through the door bottom where a small gap is and out through the fan.
The trials of a new build - working perfectly in smaller spaces in my garage the last few years - now just need to calibrate my new bigger space for optimal performance. Knowing I can easily control humidity and temp in the cold months I'm just working through controlling the finer but necessary points - specifically airflow or lack thereof.
I'm confident with the help/advice received already I'll find the right combo in the coming weeks and hit the ground full speed next year.
el DUcko - room is a bit longer and thinner but you got the idea. It is studded out, covered in green board (for those not in the States drywall that is mold resistant) -painted but not sure if that is acrylic or latex.
Temperature in the basement is relatively stable, dependent to a small degree on outside temps. At this time of the year it stays consistent in the 48-52 range. With the door closed and very minimal running of the humidifiers 75% (or higher) humidity is very easy to attain. Although naturally humid a good portion of my basement is finished so the natural conditions have humidity that is much too low. On changing the humidity, yes pretty easily - if I wanted to lower it just a small crack in the door for a short time will drop it as the room is situated very close to my home heating unit (heat pump, not furnace) which creates air movement around it. To increase, as stated above very easy.
Igor - your answer confirms about what I was thinking. Process is working now but I'm early into it. With door closed for a prolonged period the ammonia smell becomes strong and initially I had been cracking the door. Unfortunately I now know (this is a follow to another post on my slow weight loss) after cutting into my oldest batch case hardening was apparent. Since it was difficult for me to believe with just a small opening in the door (2 inches / 5cm) I put a second humidity sensor down there near the door. Seems the humidity levels near the door dropped into the low to mid 60's even with the other end of the room still in the low 70's. The humidifier and humidistat were at the end opposite the door. So about a 10%-15% difference in humidity across the length of about 10 feet. Now expect I'll be trashing 30+ pounds of salami. Good news is that the coppa are doing fine as I have always found them more forgiving and I've got over 80lbs going (36 kilos).
Where I am now is a humidifier at each end of the room into the humidistat, humidity much more even throughout the room. Have a low speed computer fan on order that I am debating installing to cycle on just once or twice a day for 30 minutes or an hour to refresh/recycle the air. Although it appears it isn't a necessity it will keep the ammonia smell from building up, get some fresh air in and may assist in drying a little bit. I'm thinking I would place it at the bottom of the chamber as the salamis hang towards the top and middle of the chamber and at the end away from the door which would pull air in through the door bottom where a small gap is and out through the fan.
The trials of a new build - working perfectly in smaller spaces in my garage the last few years - now just need to calibrate my new bigger space for optimal performance. Knowing I can easily control humidity and temp in the cold months I'm just working through controlling the finer but necessary points - specifically airflow or lack thereof.
I'm confident with the help/advice received already I'll find the right combo in the coming weeks and hit the ground full speed next year.
Occupation?? Part time Butcher, Chef, Microbiologist, Scientist and Meteorologist – does what pays the bills really matter?
Eric
Eric
and this opens another question for me (although I don't know that a dehumidifier is an answer). Lots of us control to some extent the ambient conditions but is there something that will cool a space down wit acceptable airflow (very little)? My basement temps naturally allow for about 5 months in an acceptable range (late October to late March). Outside that the basement gets above 60f but not by much in all but the hottest 2 months. Is there an easy and cost effective way for me to cool a space this large down by 5 degrees or so without excessive airflow? Keeping in mind this is a hobby, not an occupation...el Ducko wrote:You can remove water from incoming air with a dehumidifier (which works by cooling down the air to drop moisture out, then heating it back up.) Some of our forum members do this. Others, who live in drier climates, are more fortunate and don't have to.
Tougher questions I realize but I've been through the smaller spaces, had great success and just looking to make much more product to share with friends and family
If there is an answer to be had I think this is the place to get it!!
Occupation?? Part time Butcher, Chef, Microbiologist, Scientist and Meteorologist – does what pays the bills really matter?
Eric
Eric
Eric,
Assuming that "this large" means the whole basement, perhaps a small air conditioner window unit would be the answer. If there are no windows, perhaps a ducting arrangement would work. (I did that in an attic "bonus room" once.) Decent air circulation will still be necessary in order to keep the air in the room well mixed. Your curing room wouldn't be impacted.
Case hardening is a tough problem to solve. Ideally, the humidity in the curing chamber would ramp downward as the meat dried, so that the difference between meat interior and circulating air would remain at a constant (small) amount. That's easier said than done, however. Perhaps you could start at higher humidity?
I'm guessing, here. My chemical plant background means that I have no practical experience in meat processing, but the principles seem to be close to the same. We were solid-state-polymerizing PET, and a similar case hardening condition occurs if the glycol gradient within the chip is too great. The outside loses mass, partially crystallizes, and shrinks, closing off passages to the outside, leaving the interior "wet." ...same way with meat- - loss of moisture causes the material to shrink, closing down migration passages to the outside. If it all happens uniformly, no problem. (It just gets slower and slower.) Case hardening, however...
Regarding the green board, perhaps a coat of a good sealant would help. I use a product called "KILZ" which comes in both oil-base and water-base versions. A pipe burst and soaked some of our sheet rock. We dried it as best we could (dehumidifier for a couple of weeks), then painted on some KILZ to avoid possible mildew problems. ...worked great. This will de-stabilize your curing chamber's humidity, most likely, but hopefully you can control it, what with all the free advice & hot air you are receiving!
Please keep us posted.
Assuming that "this large" means the whole basement, perhaps a small air conditioner window unit would be the answer. If there are no windows, perhaps a ducting arrangement would work. (I did that in an attic "bonus room" once.) Decent air circulation will still be necessary in order to keep the air in the room well mixed. Your curing room wouldn't be impacted.
Case hardening is a tough problem to solve. Ideally, the humidity in the curing chamber would ramp downward as the meat dried, so that the difference between meat interior and circulating air would remain at a constant (small) amount. That's easier said than done, however. Perhaps you could start at higher humidity?
I'm guessing, here. My chemical plant background means that I have no practical experience in meat processing, but the principles seem to be close to the same. We were solid-state-polymerizing PET, and a similar case hardening condition occurs if the glycol gradient within the chip is too great. The outside loses mass, partially crystallizes, and shrinks, closing off passages to the outside, leaving the interior "wet." ...same way with meat- - loss of moisture causes the material to shrink, closing down migration passages to the outside. If it all happens uniformly, no problem. (It just gets slower and slower.) Case hardening, however...
Regarding the green board, perhaps a coat of a good sealant would help. I use a product called "KILZ" which comes in both oil-base and water-base versions. A pipe burst and soaked some of our sheet rock. We dried it as best we could (dehumidifier for a couple of weeks), then painted on some KILZ to avoid possible mildew problems. ...worked great. This will de-stabilize your curing chamber's humidity, most likely, but hopefully you can control it, what with all the free advice & hot air you are receiving!
Please keep us posted.
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-
Igor Duńczyk
- Passionate
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 23:41
- Location: Croatia
Let me top up by recommending that start humidity for the first 48 - 72 hours should be around 95 - 98%.el Ducko wrote:Case hardening is a tough problem to solve...(.)...Perhaps you could start at higher humidity?
It is in the initial phase that you have to secure the further smooth progression of the maturing and drying out process and if humidity is just a bit too low at the outset the risk of case hardening is equally bigger.
Even if your fermenting temperature doesn´t exceed 68 degrees F, I would still say that 75% is too low to start out with.
I would consider it more of a good humidity level for maturing, after the fermentation.
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
Igor The Dane
