Making Salami in Thailand

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redzed
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Post by redzed » Thu Nov 27, 2014 14:56

L. rhamnosus is one bacteria that has been found by researchers to be effective in lowering the pH in meat. It's a probiotic naturally occuring in our intestines. A few years ago the media had a field day when they touted that sausages will now be made with "baby poop". When I experimented with aternative fermentation, l. rhamnosus was present in the probiotic capsules I used. So as Igor pointed out, yogourt is better than nothing, but some contain a whack of other ingredients, such as yeasts, that can affect the flavour.

Last night we were over at a friend's place and were served some landjaeger made by a small processor of Swiss origin. I read the ingredients and they used Gdl. It was not bad at all, so again, maybe that is another option for you. But it does produce a bit of tang.
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Post by Doc Barrington » Sat Nov 29, 2014 03:42

Hi Redzed,
the yogurt I found has 12 live cultures in it no other additives and is made from Organic 100% pure whole Cow Milk. It is only made in small quantities three times a week as the maker is a boutique health food maker selling only in Phuket at this stage. The live strains in it are: L acidophilus, Sthermophilus, L rhamnosus, L bulgaricus, L plantarum, L salivarius, B bifidum, B infantis, B longum, B breve, L casei, B lactis. I have sent email requesting the bacteria count in a 175g small tub if known and also if they can supply me with the L rhamnosus strain.

I have been searching the net for L rhamnosus, suppliers and an interesting thing was found, Lrhamnosus is the major ingredient in Vaginal capsules for the control of thrush. It is also used in the prevention of diarrhoea in travellers, and auxiliary treatment during and after treatment with antibiotics.

One product I found called Lakcid ampules for Diarrhoea has the following in it: These are the notes from their web site.
QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE COMPOSITION OF ACTIVE SUBSTANCES
Minimum 2 billion Colony formation units of Lactobacillus rhamnosus bacilli:
Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain penicillin-resistant - 40 %
Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain erythromycin- and neomycin-resistant - 40 %
Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain oxytetracycline-resistant - 20 %
Bacilli resistant to: amoxicillin, ampicillin, azlocilin, cephradin, cephtazidim, cephuroxim,
doxycycline, erythromycin, gentamycin, imipenem, clindamicin, cloxacilin, colistin, nalidixic acid, neomycin, netilmycin, penicillin, piperacilin, streptomycin, tobramicin, vankomycin.

Lactobacillus rhamnosus strains present in the medicinal product Lakcid, as with other bacteria of lactic acid, colonize the mucous membrane of the intestines and normalize the composition of the microflora of the alimentary tract, especially after its impoverishment resulting from treatment with antibiotics. The results of research have confirmed that such strains survive in the habitat of gastric juice, and are resistant to the activity of bile acids salts, which facilitates their adaptation and survival rate in the alimentary tract. Competing for substrata and a place for colonization in the intestinal mucous membrane, and producing lactic acid as a result of the anaerobic decomposition of sugars, produce unfavourable conditions for the development of most pathogenic microorganisms.

These strains possess a natural resistance to a wide spectrum of antibiotics used clinically.

I am trying to find a supplier Gdl here to give it a try as well
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Sat Nov 29, 2014 05:20

Lactobacillus Plantarum is widely used as acidifying strain for salami, so I´d definitely go for a retrieving a little batch of that. There are of course many Plantarum´s around, and some of them produce bacteriocin which attacs and kills Listeria cells.

Bifidobacterium lactis (Bb-12) and Lactobacillus casei (LC-01) and Lactobacillus acidophilus (La-5) have been examined by Chr.Hansen in a study by the end of the 90´s to "explore the possibilities of interpolating the probiotic concept into the product range of fermented sausages" meaning that these strains should be regarded more as a pro-biotic supplement in the product and less as a main acidifier. Both lactis and casei were deemed fit for that role as they thrived in the meat despite salt and pH drop, whereas the acidophilus was deemed unsuited as it did not survive the ordeal.
Wishing you a Good Day!
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Post by Doc Barrington » Sun Nov 30, 2014 06:36

Hi Igor,
thanks for the latest information. I still have heard nothing from the Yogurt maker at this time, so I have decided to make another batch of Hot Cacciatore this time using their Yogurt as a starter culture as you have stated some of the strains will die off but the beneficial ones are there and should do their job if given enough time. I will use say 1/2 a cup of Yogurt to 4.5kg of meat this time The last batch I used 1/4 cup of Yoghurt to 4.5kg of meat.

I am very pleased with the last batch of Cacciatore that I made which prompted me to started this thread. They are now over 30 days old drying nicely and taste real nice not as hot as I would have liked but its getting there. A little more Black pepper and Chili I think and some more dark red color Paprika to give it the look I am used to in the ones I used to buy in Australia.

Do you think a longer fermentation time would be beneficial, the last batch were fermented at 23-25c with a humidity of 65-70% for 48 hours exactly.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by Doc Barrington » Sat Jul 18, 2020 07:47

Hi everyone it's been a long time since I made a post. Well I'm still in Thailand and in the same small 2 bedroom house which now looks like a commercial kitchen on the inside. The previous Cacciatore Salami I made all those years back lasted over 2.5 years refrigerated in Vacuum Sealed Bags. My Italian mate said it tasted like the Cacciatore his Dad used to make even though it was hard it was still nice to chew in while having a Cold Beer or glass of Wine. I have been making Charcuterie the whole time and converted a small fridge into a controlled Curing Chamber for the past few years it has sufficed but the Covid 19 had me locked in and bored so I started making Salumi as I could still get whole Mussels of Pork before I got completely locked in and could not travel outside our Village. Lucky I bought quite a lot of Pork Loin, PorkbShoulder, Pork Tenderloins and whole Pork Belly a few weeks earlier and had it in my freezer. I really go stuck into it there is now over 26kg of Salumi and Salami in my Curing Chamber with room for another 14 kg. They now have a good amount of White Mold growing on them, I introduced it from a commercial Salami made in France that I purchased as a snack and donor for my White Mold. It started to grow within less than 24 hours while fermenting at 28c with a RH of 80-85 and was quite visable as opaque areas on the Casings after spraying but all over them the day before. Now the wait is a on some of the skinny Salami Sticks will be ready in about 9 days, but the bigger ones are 6 to 8 weeks away.
I'm aiming for a reduction of 35%. I made Cured Pork Tenderloins 6 weeks ago, they turned out great and dryed quite quickly in about 21 to 26 days. They were all made together then Hot Chilli Flakes, Black Pepper and Smoked Paprika applied before putting them in Collagen Casings to cure.
Well that's my catch up, plenty of pictures to come when I get a Chance.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by redzed » Thu Jul 23, 2020 16:49

Hello Barry,
It's been a while, welcome back. Glad to hear that you are continuing with your salumi making and managing it with all the challenges. Are you still using yogourt to ferment or have you tried some of the commercial starter cultures? And when you do find the time, can you post your complete process and recipes?
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by Doc Barrington » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:41

Hi redzed, sorry I can't remember your name.
I only this morning wrapped, netted and Trussed a 2.46 kg Beef Bresaola that I've been curing for the past 14 days, it will be the last for a few weeks as I'm driving North East tomorrow morning for a three week holiday from my holiday.
Arrived at destination this afternoon, 15 hours over two days now in Chanthaburi.
Back to your question, I haven't been using Yoghurt for a while now, the Yoghurt I was using was from a local small supplier, they got bigger and moved to Bangkok and I could not get their product locally anymore so it was back to finding a new source. I brought a Probiotic Supplement back from Australia in January it had all the required bacterial in one way or another and I used 3 capsules per 7 kg of meat, I had a very good PH drop after fermenting for 36 hours it was PH 5.2 and I had a good coverage of Back Slopped White Mold from a French made Salami Snack Stick that I purchased for the purpose. I now have that Mold as my main source for the future as it is on everything in my Curing Chamber.
I found another Yoghurt recently but it only has one listed strain not multiple like before so Probiotic Capsules will be what I will use for the time being. That again is a problem now as I was planning on returning to Australia in the next few months to visit Family and friends like I'd do every year but that is out of the question as Australians who return home cannot leave Australia until the first of July next year at this point in time. I will stay here in Thailand where we are safe with all their borders closed and no new cases of Carona Virus for over 9 weeks in Thailand. The only new cases reported have been Thais returning home from UAE and Egypt and were in mandatory 14 day monitored quarantine. As no one can leave to visit me I will get more Probiotic Capsules sent over registered mail with tracking number.

While I am here in Chanthaburi I will be busy, I brought my notes from the past two months with me and I will be adding them to my Cook Book.
I have been writing it from my notes and my own recipes from years back that I had written down on sheets of scrap paper, it was getting too messy and I decided to type the recipes out so I could save them and hand them out to friends if they were stuck on making something. These are all proven recipes that I tested again and again and was able to overcome the obstacles faced by foreigners cooking anything in Thailand. I've been typing it out over the past 4 years and it is getting bigger by the week. It is a full list of everything I make with pictures, full recipe with exact measurements and step by step instructions and list of equipment required for anyone who wants to cook anywhere in the world especially here in the Tropics. My kitchen is a full blown small commercial kitchen where I take on the challenges handed out to me or suggested by my mates. Recently in the past few weeks since the Covid 9 lockdown I have made for the first time and at the request, suggestion of my mates o my own needs: traditional style English Mobary Pork Pies with hand raised pastry, Australian Fish and Chip Shop style Deep Fried Fish and Potato Cakes, Coffee Scrolls with Raisins, Rich Dark Chocolate Brownies with Coconut, Almonds and Walnuts with Australian Bundaberg Rum glaze, Ciabatta Bread (I couldn't get any decent Bread as we were in full lock down for over 6 weeks where I live) Greek style Pickled Octopus and Giant Squid Tentacles, Indian Hot Dry Mango Pickle, Indian Hot Mango Chutney, Green Tomato Chutney, North African/Moroccan style Merguez Sausages, Austrian style Bratwurst, Smoked Hot Dogs (big fail there the emulsion broke I let it go a bit too long in the bowl cutter first time), Black Pepper Mortadella, Black Pepper Smoked Salmon, Hot and Mild Chorizo, Capocollo, Lonzino, Bresaola and Pressed Ham and if course revamped Hoter Cacciatore. All had their teething problems and with my little alterations and additions to the recipies I initially researched I succeeded. I have my Expat mates that live near as my testers, so far all of my recipes have been a great success and acclaimed by 5 star Restrantures and Chefs and of course my mates from all around the world except for the Hot Dogs ha ha ha. I have orders if I want to go into prodution from Hotels, 5 Star Restaurans and Expats who have tried my fair and passed the word around.
I will be giving the Hot Dogs another go on my return to Phuket in a few weeks time I don't like to be beaten even though the local street dogs love them and hopefully will miss out on the next batch.
Well I need a Beer! speak soon
Barry
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by Doc Barrington » Sat Aug 01, 2020 02:24

Redzed, please send me a PM.
I have been searching a web site in Australia for the same brand of Probiotics and found some interesting information that was not available when I purchased the last bottle of Double Strength Probiotics. I have copied their detailed list of ingredients of 4 Probiotic they make.
They are the same company who makes the Probiotic I used recently but there are 4 different formulas and different quantities of active live Bacteria. I would like to choose the best one for the job obviously but not go overboard as they are quite expensive. Best thing is they do not need to be refrigerated and will survive here in Thailand, meaning post from Australia is a good option, and I can get it organised ASAP as what I have left is now past its use by date and only a few capsules are left..
Thanks in advance
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by redzed » Tue Aug 04, 2020 01:17

If you send me the info on the probiotics you have shortlisted I will be be happy to take a look at the bacteria contents and see whether any of them might be suitable. Keep in mind that the lactobacilli found in probiotic capsules can work well in fermenting the salami, but they don't contain any coagulase-negative staphylococci (CNS) which are also always included in prepared starter cultures. Degree of proteolytic changes during the sausage maturation is related mainly to CNS activity as is the reduction of nitrates/nitrites. And when using probiotics you have to also try not to have a fast fermentation and not lower the pH below 5, otherwise you will inactivate the naturally occurring CNS.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by IskraTS11 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 17:46

Now that's a success story, I didn't know you could get orders from hotels and restaurants by making salami in Thailand... It looks like I've chosen the wrong career :lol: but on a more serious note, that's quite the impressive feat, congrats on "making it" through sausage making.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by Doc Barrington » Sat Oct 03, 2020 03:17

Thanks for the positive feedback. I have been giving out samples and so far all positive replies.
The rolled Pancetta seems to be a big hit, followed by the Capocollo, and Lonzino, now see if I get some orders.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by Doc Barrington » Sat Oct 03, 2020 03:23

Hi Redzed, I sent you a PM with the details of the Probiotic Capsules. Can you let me know if you got it, I was a bit confused with the PM sending section.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by redzed » Sat Oct 03, 2020 15:44

Yes, I received the PM. Am currently occupied with mushroom collecting. Will reply tomorrow.
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by fongnam1016 » Fri May 14, 2021 17:44

Reactivating this thread hoping to get some advice!

Hi Redzed, been reading through some of your experiments, and would love to get your thoughts on the type of Probiotic supplements I could use.

I'm currently living in Taiwan, similar to Thailand, it's impossible to get commercial starter cultures here, I've emailed every distributor and no one is willing to ship it here. I'm hoping to make classic pepperoni for a pizza shop (one's that curl up when you bake them).

I've looked at some of your posts, and looking through existing papers, I'm currently looking at 3 options for probiotic starter cultures.:
1. L. Acidophilus: [https://tw.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Acido ... lsrc=aw.ds]
2. L. rhamnosus GG: https://tw.iherb.com/pr/Culturelle-Prob ... sules/7797
3. Probiotic Blend, this seems to have most of the probiotics you've mentioned in other threads (L. acidophilus (La-14), Bifidobacterium lactis (BI-04), L. plantarum (Lp-115), L. casei (Lc-11), L. rhamnosus (Lr 32), L. paracasei (Lpc-37), Bifidobacterium breve (Bb-03), Streptococcus thermophilus (St-21), L. salivarius (Ls-33), Bifidobacterium longum (BI-05)): https://tw.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Probi ... ules/21130

Thank you in advance for your time!

- Nam
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Re: Making Salami in Thailand

Post by redzed » Mon May 17, 2021 16:25

Hi Nam and welcome to the forum. Since doing the research and experiments with using yogourt and probiotics, I don't think they are appropriate to use in long term dried salami. But for fast acidified and cooked products such as your pizza pepperoni, they should work. The probiotic blend has many of the same bacteria as used in starter cultures, so it should work. Ferment at a high temp 32-35C, try adding 6g/kg of dextrose and see what happens. Very important to be able to test the pH. You might also want to look at alternative acidifying products such as GDL or citric acid.
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