There are some other moulds present as you can see in the pic. It's about 2.5 weeks since they were made.
Will the bactoferm 600 starve out the other moulds?
If no, what should I do?
first timer: will bactoferm 600 overrun the other moulds?
first timer: will bactoferm 600 overrun the other moulds?
Hi, I've just started my salami adventures. These salami were sprayed with bactoferm 600 3-4 days after being made.
There are some other moulds present as you can see in the pic. It's about 2.5 weeks since they were made.
Will the bactoferm 600 starve out the other moulds?
If no, what should I do?
There are some other moulds present as you can see in the pic. It's about 2.5 weeks since they were made.
Will the bactoferm 600 starve out the other moulds?
If no, what should I do?
Hi Pasey and welcome to the forum!
The answer to your question is yes. Penicillium nalgiovense not only improves the flavour of salami but also plays a significant role in the prevention of the growth of pathogenic, toxigenic or spoilage fungi. However, there are so many strains of moulds out there that nothing is ever a given. And you can't always tell by the colour whether the mould is friendly or not. Judging from your picture, and the period of time it took to coat the sausage, your humidity might be a bit too high. This also might be compounded by a high temp. Too much mould is now considered as a detriment to the finished product. Not sure that you have any undesirable moulds there, are those black dots mould or something else? and the darker spots under the white mould might be yeast. A bit of of green mould is also usually ok. Just keep an eye on the sausage and if you see black or red mould spots, gently scrape them off with the end of a knife and wipe with a bit of vinegar. Let us know how the salami turns out.
The answer to your question is yes. Penicillium nalgiovense not only improves the flavour of salami but also plays a significant role in the prevention of the growth of pathogenic, toxigenic or spoilage fungi. However, there are so many strains of moulds out there that nothing is ever a given. And you can't always tell by the colour whether the mould is friendly or not. Judging from your picture, and the period of time it took to coat the sausage, your humidity might be a bit too high. This also might be compounded by a high temp. Too much mould is now considered as a detriment to the finished product. Not sure that you have any undesirable moulds there, are those black dots mould or something else? and the darker spots under the white mould might be yeast. A bit of of green mould is also usually ok. Just keep an eye on the sausage and if you see black or red mould spots, gently scrape them off with the end of a knife and wipe with a bit of vinegar. Let us know how the salami turns out.
Thanks for your help. The spots are black dots on the end of white hairs. The humidity is fluctuating between 70-82% as its in an semi open position (under my deck protected from wind and light) but I can't control it. Temp is fluctuating between 6-7 degrees Celsius in cold mornings up to 12-14 deg c in the daytime (it winter time here). I'll scape off anything nasty as you suggest and see how we go. With the 600 mould recolonise the scraped off bit?
After a while yes since the vinegar will prevent most things from growing. But then there is no need to have every part of the salami covered with mould. Those black dots might be dust particles from your deck and the white hairs the white mould.Pasey25 wrote:With the 600 mould recolonise the scraped off bit?
Just an update here.
the bactoferm did overrun the other moulds thankfully.
My salami was cured by salt only, no nitrites or nitrates. No fermentation cultures. One variety I made had sherry added (i'll get to why thats relevant later)
Just old school italian style. thats common here in Melbourne where I am from.
I found that without the fermentation, the bactoferm 600 was too aggressive at increasing Ph via lactic acid degradation and as a result, the basic, unspiced/unflavoured salami variety I made is too bland and lacking some necessary sourness.
I made 5 different varieties of salami in this batch and by far the best, and with a good level of sourness is the one with the sherry added. Clearly the alcohol kicked off some natural fermentation and lowered the Ph enough for the desired sourness.
I thought it was worth noting here for those who use the bactoferm 600 without other fermentation steps or aids.
for next year I will either make all my salami with some alcohol added, or consider fermentation additives and steps added to my process.
the bactoferm did overrun the other moulds thankfully.
My salami was cured by salt only, no nitrites or nitrates. No fermentation cultures. One variety I made had sherry added (i'll get to why thats relevant later)
Just old school italian style. thats common here in Melbourne where I am from.
I found that without the fermentation, the bactoferm 600 was too aggressive at increasing Ph via lactic acid degradation and as a result, the basic, unspiced/unflavoured salami variety I made is too bland and lacking some necessary sourness.
I made 5 different varieties of salami in this batch and by far the best, and with a good level of sourness is the one with the sherry added. Clearly the alcohol kicked off some natural fermentation and lowered the Ph enough for the desired sourness.
I thought it was worth noting here for those who use the bactoferm 600 without other fermentation steps or aids.
for next year I will either make all my salami with some alcohol added, or consider fermentation additives and steps added to my process.
Thank you for that update, the follow up posts are a great way for us to aid others in the same situation!
One more note:
While that post mainly addresses cures the same can be said for using cultures.
One more note:
I always think of a post by Butterbean when folks say that they don't use cures or culturesPasey25 wrote:for next year I will either make all my salami with some alcohol added, or consider fermentation additives and steps added to my process.
Butterbean wrote:But they have been doing it this way for hundred of years. I've seen this comment a lot and its partly true. What I think is being overlooked is the fact the Italians identified their salts and used specific ones from specific areas for curing and these salts gave the meat that rosy color. Where does the color come from if there are no nitrites? Some of the Italian salts sold today have ingredient labels on them identifying what's in the salt and some clearly label it as being an impurity. So my question is are you actually using the same salt the Italian's used or are you simply buying salt of unknown origin? Granted, the incidence of botulism is very rare but the lethality of botulism is extremely serious if you draw the wrong card.
I have an Italian friend who makes some of the best salami I've ever tasted but since he now lives in the states he choses to add cure even though it was never used in Italy.
Just because we now understand why something worked in the past doesn't mean it is bad but I think having the knowledge and not using it would make one negligent. JMHO
While that post mainly addresses cures the same can be said for using cultures.
Thanks for that update Pasey. And I just want to make a few comments and observations here and while I don't want to offend you in any way, I think a few things here need to be clarified.
1. If you want to make dry cured fermented sausages in the "old school" Italian style as you say, then you need to make it in an environment where the right natural flora abound and where you have similar climatic conditions. So unless you have access to cave in Italy or a cellar that has been used for curing meats for decades or centuries, you will not be able to duplicate the products made there. Further to this, old style products were cured with "impure" salts that actually contained concentrations of nitrates. And sausages were also inoculated with bacteria from previous batches, using a practice known as backslopping. And it also depends on the type of meat used in making the salami. The old school artisans used meat from older more mature animals and that meant that the meat was more flavourful and the starting pH was lower to begin with It therefore it took less bacterial activity to lower it to the more or less safer level of 5.2 or lower. If you use meat from younger market size hogs, in that they are only six months old at slaughter, the meat will have a higher pH.
2. Please read sections of Marianski's book The Art of Making Fermented Sausages, where the subject of making products without starter cultures is covered. Natural fermentation is possible, but nitrites/nitrates are also used. I know that there are producers outside of Europe that successfully make dry cured products without starter cultures of nitrites/nitrates. However, the products are made under highly controlled conditions, with meat meat from known and specific sources and by trained and experienced individuals.
3. Alcohol in itself will not ferment meat. If the sherry in your salami made a difference it may have been from the sugar it which provided some food for the naturally occurring bacteria in the meat.
4. The starter cultures that are available to us are derived from the naturally occurring bacteria extracted from those very "old school" products originating in Europe, so why not use them? They contain bacteria that will not only ferment your sausage but will improve the flavour, colour and texture. And of course will prevent harmful bacteria from overtaking the process.
5. In not using nitrites/nitrates and starter cultures the risks of your sausages being infected with Clostridium botulinum, Listeria monocytogenes, Escherichia coli, and Campylobacter jejuni are significantly multiplied.
6. Starter cultures and curing salts, along with home made curing chambers make it possible for us hobbyists to make safe and tasty dry cured products at home. And while they may not totally duplicate what that southern European artisan makes in a thousand year old environment, in my humble opinion, it is the best route to take.
1. If you want to make dry cured fermented sausages in the "old school" Italian style as you say, then you need to make it in an environment where the right natural flora abound and where you have similar climatic conditions. So unless you have access to cave in Italy or a cellar that has been used for curing meats for decades or centuries, you will not be able to duplicate the products made there. Further to this, old style products were cured with "impure" salts that actually contained concentrations of nitrates. And sausages were also inoculated with bacteria from previous batches, using a practice known as backslopping. And it also depends on the type of meat used in making the salami. The old school artisans used meat from older more mature animals and that meant that the meat was more flavourful and the starting pH was lower to begin with It therefore it took less bacterial activity to lower it to the more or less safer level of 5.2 or lower. If you use meat from younger market size hogs, in that they are only six months old at slaughter, the meat will have a higher pH.
2. Please read sections of Marianski's book The Art of Making Fermented Sausages, where the subject of making products without starter cultures is covered. Natural fermentation is possible, but nitrites/nitrates are also used. I know that there are producers outside of Europe that successfully make dry cured products without starter cultures of nitrites/nitrates. However, the products are made under highly controlled conditions, with meat meat from known and specific sources and by trained and experienced individuals.
3. Alcohol in itself will not ferment meat. If the sherry in your salami made a difference it may have been from the sugar it which provided some food for the naturally occurring bacteria in the meat.
4. The starter cultures that are available to us are derived from the naturally occurring bacteria extracted from those very "old school" products originating in Europe, so why not use them? They contain bacteria that will not only ferment your sausage but will improve the flavour, colour and texture. And of course will prevent harmful bacteria from overtaking the process.
5. In not using nitrites/nitrates and starter cultures the risks of your sausages being infected with Clostridium botulinum, Listeria monocytogenes, Escherichia coli, and Campylobacter jejuni are significantly multiplied.
6. Starter cultures and curing salts, along with home made curing chambers make it possible for us hobbyists to make safe and tasty dry cured products at home. And while they may not totally duplicate what that southern European artisan makes in a thousand year old environment, in my humble opinion, it is the best route to take.
I'm not offended, but I'm not surprised at the comments here. Like I said, curing in this way is common here in Melbourne. Much much more common than fermented curing. In my reading particularly in the U.S. It's heavily frowned upon, as the posts here indicate. I'm ok with that. Not all readers will be from the U.S.
