Salami, do I need to use a chamber?! with pics

[Fingers]

Hi Folks

Trying to cure my first salami and chorizo.

Followed a very simple formula 3% salt to meat, hung them in a warm room for 24 hours then transferred to my well ventilated car free outside garage which is 2 - 10 degC and humidity about 80 - 95%

This is what they look like after 9 days, BTW they have whole black pepper corns which appear as black spots.









BUT

This recipe did not mention using Cure #2 nor any other nitrates. So I am possibly going to bin them, unless its ok to cook with them which would kill any potential botulism. Either way I will be leaving them till they have lost 30% weight as a test.

SO

I have since then made another batch of salami using cure #2 and used 2.75% salt to 2.5% cure #2, hung in a warm room for 24 hours then into the garage.

BUT

I am reading on another sausagemaking forum and the guys there are saying its almost imperative you use a starter culture AND a fermentation chamber!! I mean come on, I see some people on youtube making them with just salt and no chambers nor starter kits, hanging them in the garage and all is well. The sausagemaking forum guys say without the starter culture your in danger of deadly bacterium which will kill you!!

I am starting to think how on earth did they manage to cure sausage at all back in the days before fridges to turn into chambers and preservatives, oh hang on. They used salt and dusty old cellars and huts. Whilst I see the benefit of cure #2 to prevent botulism, is this not enough? Is the rest not obvious to the eyes nose that something is bad? Am I am just being given the fear.!

[LOUSANTELLO]

Putting aside the culture, I will let someone else comment on that. Regarding your second batch, you used 2.5% cure #2. It's supposed to be .25%. Yikes. That's alot of cure. My brother makes soppressata once a year the old way, no chamber, no nitrates, no culture. There are too many variables when something doesn't go right. As explained to me from someone who works at a salumeria. These days, you have less control where the meat came from, how many tables it was on and how many hands touched it before you got it. He also explained to me that regarding the cultures and good molds, it's in the air in Italy. We have to produce our own unnaturally.

[Fingers]

Putting aside the culture, I will let someone else comment on that. Regarding your second batch, you used 2.5% cure #2. It's supposed to be .25%. Yikes. That's alot of cure. My brother makes soppressata once a year the old way, no chamber, no nitrates, no culture. There are too many variables when something doesn't go right. As explained to me from someone who works at a salumeria. These days, you have less control where the meat came from, how many tables it was on and how many hands touched it before you got it. He also explained to me that regarding the cultures and good molds, it's in the air in Italy. We have to produce our own unnaturally.

Sorry! yes that is 0.25% !! 27.5g salt + 2.5g of cure per KG what I used.

I am happy to bin something if it is obviously bad, it is the unseen killers the frighten me. I am happy to use cure #2 or #1 to guarantee against botulism, seems a no brainier. What is confusing me is the talk about "starter cultures". Ok so theres quite a few different types, all protecting against different bacterium in different way?...!!! SO which one do you choose IF you have to use at all. I read people saying if you get white powdery mold this is good, all is well. Some say this could even be introduced by simply buying a salami with white mold and handing it next to your own. Some say they just make it and hanging it. Some say you require cure #2 AND starter culture AND fermentaion chamber AND PH meters AND Humidity controls AND temp controls OR YOU WILL DIE !!!!!

I do not know who or what to believe, there so much conflicting opinion and methods both published and on the internet.

I am more inclined to go the simple way, use the cures #1 or 2# and IF I am lucky I might have the right conditions to dry a good finished SAFE product to eat. If there are more unseen killers like botulism then why is there not another simple cure like cure #1 or 2# to kill them?

I have seen a list of 6 here http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... e/cultures

So what do you do, use all 6? Are they more for flavour than guarantee against unseen killer bugs?

The more I read the more confusing the whole thing becomes.!

[Bob K]

Fingers-
First off welcome to the forum!

I would suggest getting the book The Art of Making Fermented sausage by the Marianskis.
It will answer most all your questions in depth.
There is also a valuable resource on fermented meats available on line here https://www.academia.edu/8548143/handbo ... nd_poultry

There is also a discussion on the use of nitrites and cultures here :
http://www.wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6634

In the end the choice of to use or not to use is yours. Most of of us here will recommend using cures and cultures as it is the safest way and will save you a lot of wasted (spoiled) product in the long run, and also give you peace of mind in making a safe to consume product.

[Fingers]

Fingers-
First off welcome to the forum!

I would suggest getting the book The Art of Making Fermented sausage by the Marianskis.
It will answer most all your questions in depth.
There is also a valuable resource on fermented meats available on line here https://www.academia.edu/8548143/handbo ... nd_poultry

There is also a discussion on the use of nitrites and cultures here :
http://www.wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6634
.

Thanks Bob

I have already had a glance through that "handbook of_fermented meat and poultry", this is my problem I guess, I don't wish to study food science for a PHD. I am more your River Cottage type, just want to know enough so I can make a safe product to eat.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Curing-Smoking- ... 140880882X

But this guy does not use nitrate, I plan on doing so. But it would seem that this is not the end of the story.

It would seem it is still possible to use nitrate and end up with a product that looks and smells perfect, yet it will kill you. If this is true then if you use a cure and a starter culture does this then guarantee that you could not produce a beautiful looking and smelling product that is going to kill you?

This is the question I would like answered!

Cheers

[Bob K]

It would seem it is still possible to use nitrate and end up with a product that looks and smells perfect, yet it will kill you. If this is true then if you use a cure and a starter culture does this then guarantee that you could not produce a beautiful looking and smelling product that is going to kill you?

This is the question I would like answered!

Unfortunately no one can answer that question with 100% certainty. However you can stack the odds of making a safe product by following and understanding basic rules of sausage making/meat handing and using cures and cultures.

[Butterbean]

First of all, I applaud you for trying to make it as traditional as possible.

I'll try to answer your question or at least give you my take on things.

Making salami is similar to making wine. If you allow nature to have free reign on the whole process your wine will taste different each year. Not that this is bad but you will not have consistency and you will not be able to replicate the same wine if you hit on a good one.

With salume, its the same. The use of starter cultures gives you control and consistency and like a wine yeast, the culture can be chosen to bring out certain traits or give you specific control over certain things.

As for the cure. In the past natural salts were chosen by how they cured the meat and most of these "raw" salts contain nitrate. How much depends on the source. In the past, raw salts were the norm but today many of the salts are purified and contain only sodium chloride because the "impurities" have been removed and sold separately.

Today, many people are scared to death of nitrates and nitrites when the are the very foundation of the nitrogen cycle hence the pillar of life itself. Rather than embracing the fact that man has figured out how to work with nature to make our foods safe many view their use as a bad thing. Ironically, many of these same people are the ones who insist on eating naturally.

The bottom line is we as a people have finally understood this mystery of nature and we understand the minimal amount of nitrates/ites needed to accomplish the task. This is where your Cure's come in. These are precise amounts used at the lowest rates needed to accomplish the job. Using these "manufactured" ingredients will allow you consistency in your product and insure you have enough not that having more would be bad unless you cook your salami at extreme heat which will transform the nitrate into a carcinogen - but who is going to do that?

Sure, you can make it without these for they have done so for years but its extremely important that if you are going to do that you use raw salts like some sea salts or some European salts which have been time proven to contain ample nitrates to keep the botulism from sporing.

[Fingers]

Thanks Guys

I am in no doubt at all about the use of nitrates and I am using cure #2 in the latest salami batch and coppa I started two days ago. Also cure #1 in my pancetta started two days ago.

I want to keep it safe as possible so I have also just ordered this starter culture http://www.weschenfelder.co.uk/salami-c ... lture.html

Batch 1 with just salt @3% (pictured above) will end up binned, I don't care to take the gamble.!

Batch 2 with cure#2 in but no starter culture, I at least know I will not be worried about botulism. And if it looks and smells ok, then I guess it will be ok.

Once the starter culture comes I will make another batch.

So to recap if I may, to keep this in basic simple terms;

1. Use Salt, Cure #2 and a starter culture all at the correct % per kg
2. Keep temps very low when grinding the meat and making the sausage.
3. Move stuffed sausage to a warm humid area for 24 hours or so? (so many different ideas about this one).
4. Move to a cool humid well ventilated drying room.
5. Once 35% weight loss is achieved... BING the dinner bell can ring!

Am I missing anything?

[Bob K]

You have the basics Fingers! Sounds like a plan.

3. Move stuffed sausage to a warm humid area for 24 hours or so? (so many different ideas about this one).

The only sure way to know about fermentation is to be able to check the Ph. The safety hurdle is 5.3 or below.

[redzed]

Fingers, to begin with, it would be greatly beneficial for you to read Marianski's The Art of Making Fermented Sausages. It will answer all your questions regarding bacteria, both good and bad, explain how salt, nitrates interact with them and the concept of the hurdle technology. And there is also a discussion about making dry cured sausages without starter cultures. The book is written for the amateur or novice and not for the scientist, as what you found in the Fedor Toldra book. In the end you will be able to make better informed decisions as to how you want to make your sausages.

Many successfully make dry cured sausages without starter cultures, but it is important to understand what is going on throughout the whole process rather than acting on faith alone. I made a few narrow diameter dry sausages without cultures and am still alive. In practicing good hygiene, using quality meat, adequate salt amounts and nitrite amounts there is no reason why you can't make a safe sausage. However, for some individuals the process is considered as unsafe, after all we are dealing with raw meat.

In my opinion, the longer cured salami benefit from starter cultures not only from the safety perspective but from the flavour of the end product. Stater cultures, and especially those crafted to give you that southern European flavour, contain bacteria that occurs naturally in the Italian caves and cellars. These simply do not occur in our part of the world. And while there are nearly 100 strains of lactic bacteria, only a handful will work with you to produce a good tasting product. So by building a curing chamber to provide a favourable climate and inoculating with a starter culture, we can make something that may resemble what has been made traditionally for centuries in Southern Europe.

[Fingers]

I will give that book a read, thanks redzed

Taking Ph levels from a sausage, can this be done cheaply Bob?

[Bob K]

Taking Ph levels from a sausage, can this be done cheaply Bob?

Sure just get some narrow range litmus/Ph paper. Not sure of sources in the UK


http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5165

[Fingers]

You have the basics Fingers! Sounds like a plan.

3. Move stuffed sausage to a warm humid area for 24 hours or so? (so many different ideas about this one).

The only sure way to know about fermentation is to be able to check the Ph. The safety hurdle is 5.3 or below.

I am a little stuck here, I see two options for me as I don`t have a naturally very warm humid place in the house.

1. Use my fan oven in the kitchen on defrost which sets the temp at a constant 29degC (possibly too high, and blowy) with a fan going, humidity can be controlled with water in the bottom.

2. Make a chamber out of this http://www.wilko.com/invt/0239167 using a light with a temperature controller.

[Bob K]

Use #2 the convection oven has too much air movement and would dry the surface of the chubs.

Our other moderator Redzed uses a cooler and a temp controller with a small slow cooker/crock pot for heat and humidity.

[Fingers]

Would the box need any air movement in terms of fans, or is it ok to be just the convection air movement with the heat?