Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by BBQBob » Mon Feb 25, 2019 04:09

StefanS, that looks amazing!
25 years ago I use to smoke pot. Now I smoke pork.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Tue Mar 05, 2019 16:01

Some time ago i saw that post and that idea - https://wedlinydomowe.pl/forum/topic/13 ... ntry533730 - Fred Flinstone's delicacy. During praparing to new portion of Salami I have decided to make salami that looks similar. Searching for recipe I didn't find nothing but (lean pork, lean beef, back fat. Things are a little different when you look on carcas - there not only lean meat but there is different fats, there class III, During my preparing to make polish style smoked meats (wedzonki) I obtain a lot of different trimmings. And I do not got any back fat. Also - spices - most recipes have very similar spices. When I start to think about life of cavemen there are much different diet - ( example - National Geographic articles). So my idea finally was that - meats - then using a light accidificate culture. dextrose amount enough to get pH below 5.0, nuts, and in background some exotic taste - Chinese 5 Spices. And ofcourse - in cave they had a lot of smoke - so after fermentation - a few hours of cold smoke.
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I have used hog bladder for funny part, prepared hog leg bone. Then rest of mince stuffed in collagen casing 3 1/2 (90 mm).
pork - cl. II (90lean/10%fat, ham, pork butts trimmings) - 1.85 kg ( plate - 7mm on grinder)
pork belly and jowls trimmings - 2.95 kg (plate 6 mm (cubed frozen))
pork class III (meat from shank, connecting tissue) - 0.5 kg ( semi-frozen, plate 2.5 mm)
lean beef (chuck) - 2.25 kg (plate 3 mm).
sea salt - 22.5 g/kg
Cure #2 - 2.5 g/kg
dextrose - 3 g/kg
sugar - 2 g/kg
Bactoferm F-LC -0.5 g/kg
chinese 5 spices - 0.5 ng/kg
black pepper (coarse) - 2 g/kg
garlic chopped dried - 2 g/kg
hazelnuts (crashed) - 8.5 g/kg
pistachios (crushed) 3.5 g/kg
pine nuts - 5 g/kg
dried cranberry - 1.5 g/kg ( without any additions like sugar)
sunflower seeds - 3.5 g/kg
wild garlic infusion - 30 ml
Fermentation - 18 -19 *C (66 -68 F) - pH after 32 hours - 5.65: after 66 hours - ph 4.79.
At this time moved to smoking - 2 x 4 hours. Then to chamber.
There are additional two salamis - next post.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by redzed » Wed Mar 06, 2019 15:13

Image Geez, somebody has a lot of spare time on their hands.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by Bob K » Wed Mar 06, 2019 15:34

StefanS wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 16:01
prepared hog leg bone.
Wasn't that supposed to be a Taurantasaurus bone?
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Wed Mar 06, 2019 20:25

:D
Bob K wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 15:34
Wasn't that supposed to be a Taurantasaurus bone?
Hopefully next hunting season I will get one - :lol: :D :D
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by Butterbean » Wed Mar 06, 2019 23:00

That's really interesting and creative.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Thu Mar 07, 2019 01:45

My next idea - some time ago some of colleagues mention that long time ago saw Italian salami with olives. That was bothering myself for some time until in BJ's I have found green olives in jar (marinated). So why not a give try to make some salami with them. During preparing recipe i got idea that I should chop olives (they were pitted with empty center). then I was thinking that olives that not enough for main taste. Then - Italy - that is salami, salume, Culatello, coppa etc - so it meat that I have to use slow acidifying starter culture - T-SPX with small amount of sugars. Next thinking - Italy - pizza, spaghetti and what is connecting these dishes? - Of course - tomato sauce - so next addition to olives - sun dried tomatoes (chopped). And italian herbs in backgrounds ....
Image
Pork class II a (trimmings form ham, pork butts) - 2.75 kg (grinding plate - 7 mm)
pork belly/jowls - 2.5 kg (plate - 6 mm)
pork class III - 0.5 kg (plate 2.5 mm)
beef (chuck tender) - 2.5 kg ( plate 3.0 mm)
sea salt - 22.5 g/kg
Cure # 2 - 2.5 g/kg
dextrose - 2 g/kg
sugar - 1 g/kg
Bactofer T-SPX - 0.5 g/kg
cumin (ground) - 1 g/kg
cardamon - 0.8 g/kg
white pepper - 1 g/kg
black pepper - 1.2 g/kg
Italian herbs mix - 0.5 g/kg
green olives - 12 g/kg
sun dried tomatoes - 4.2 g/kg
calabrian mild pepper (crushed) - 0.8 g/kg
red wine (semi-dry blend) - 100 ml
Fermentation - 32 hours - pH 5.57: after 66 hours - 5.05 (below expected - but IMO - citric acid in olives (marinate), tomatoes, wine - main contributors for pH went below 5.2). After 66 hours of fermentation - salami moved to curing chamber. Mold 600 used.

Salami Podlasie ( region of my childhood). During listening music - Frederic Chopin - Spring Waltz - my memory drifted to my childhood. Buzzing of bees, bumble bees, songs singing by birds, smell of herbs, freshly cutted grass/hay - these memories made me somehow in translation that in culinary recipe. So there is -
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pork trims class II a - 2.75 kg
pork belly/ jowls - 2.5 kg
pork class III - 0.5 kg
beef - 2.0 kg
sea salt - 22.5 g/kg
Cure #2 - 2.5 g/kg
dextrose - 4 g/kg
sugar - 2 g/kg
Bactoferm - F-LC - 0.5 g/kg
garlic granulated - 1.5 g/kg
BP (coarse) - 2 g/kg
herbal pepper - 1 g/kg ( special mix of grind herbs (mild))
cardamon - 0.25 g/kg
ginger - 0.25 g/kg
dried tart/sour cherry - 12.8 g/kg
wild dried blueberry - 5 g/kg
Jamaican rum - 40 ml.
Before removing dried salami to vacuum pack - addition of mix of herbs like - basil, marjoram, savory, thyme, rosemary)
Fermenting - 32 hours - pH 5.70, after 66 hours - ph 4.70 (as planned). Mold 600 applied.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by BBQBob » Thu Mar 07, 2019 13:58

That looks amazing!
I remember about 40 years ago living in Flushing, New York my co workers and I use to get sandwiches on Friday at an Italian deli. They had hard salami with olive with pimento. It was soooooooo good. Haven't seen it since.
25 years ago I use to smoke pot. Now I smoke pork.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Sun Mar 17, 2019 20:12

I would like to return to my previous posts - https://wedlinydomow...?p=40702#p40702 , https://wedlinydomow...?p=41300#p41300 . Reason - I think - is there some not happy results with collagen casing. Salami Ligawa's - same meat, same ingredients, same process, only one different thing - casings. I have used natural, double wall, sewn casings ( 4 of them) and two of 68 mm flat collagen casings.
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(one of collagen casings was torn during tying - so I have used additional piece and make it double collagen - that the reason it is in netting, also that end was on the bottom of the bat).
First surprise was during unpacking after drying -
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As visible on pictures - different color of bats ( red/pinkish (more natural) color - natural casing, more beige - collagen casing).
Cross cut -
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same picture - little different light - green dots - natural casing, pink dots - collagen casing)
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Then I gave some of salamis to taste by my friends - pictures by EAnna.
Three - left - Salami Wojtka (Calabrese),, center - Salami Ligawa's (collagen), right - Salami Ligawa's (natural casing)
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As visible - different color on salami Ligawa's . Salami Wojtek - is with red Calabrese pepper and paprika.
Slices -
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visible light discoloration on rim of center row (collagen casing). also there is slight difference in structure in that rim. Slices from natural casing are close together on whole cross-section, but rim on collagen casing is not that close (similar problem is on calabrese salami).
Then cross cut by double- walled collagen end- section of salami (it was little loose packed than regular part) - visible oxidation, fat smearing and discoloration.
(cannot load that picture)
What I want to tell you - IMO - there can be some problem related to casing used in our hobby. I'm not sure yet but - maybe collagen casings shouldn't be good choice. I will make additional trial to see how things will go. I will do next similar experiment - same meat, ingredients, process - and natural and collagen casing.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Sun Mar 17, 2019 20:20

StefanS wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 20:12
(cannot load that picture) - here it is
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by Bob K » Mon Mar 18, 2019 13:40

Stefan-
I don't like using Collagen for dry cured either. I have had similar problems with the larger caliber 90 mm/ 3-1/2" in making Genoa. It almost seems as if the casings don't adhere- shrink with the sausage and become dry not allowing as much moisture loss. Similar to case hardening. Previously I never had a problem with protein lined fibrous casings of the same caliber.
The collagen casings are much thicker, and have very little, if any, stretch in the larger caliber non-edible type.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Tue Mar 19, 2019 00:16

Reason to post pictures and my thinking wasn't problem with adhere of collagen casing. My focus is most likely on color and structure of direct layer of meat under casing. Outer edge of meat has different color for sure - as you see on pictures. Fat particles in that layer also having different color - they aren't as white as particles inside bat. And another problem - there is different binding, meat particles not bond in that layer in same way as inside. Myself - i can be wrong, but it is confirmed by some of my friends. I started to dig little deeper into collagen casings production. Some of components used during manufacturing - lactic acids, strong alkali, proteolytic enzyme treatment, limed collagen fibers, enzymatically solubilized tropocollagen solution, aldehyde - glutar-aldehyde, example - during plasticization step - glicerine mono-glicerides and fatty acid esters of propylene glicol can be used. Albumin or albumin-carboxymethylcellulose combination can be used. I'm really confused by collagen casings - called manufactured natural made from corium layer of cattle hide.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by redzed » Thu Mar 21, 2019 07:08

I think your experience with collagen casings demonstrates why they are generally not recommended as a suitable choice in dry cured sausage production. Collagen casings also don't store very well at room temperature and start degrading. Maybe that was part of the problem in your case Stefan? Natural casings of course produce the best salami, but are at higher risk of microbiological contamination. As far as artificial casings for dry cured sausages, the best choice is cellulose fiber casings which are protein lined.

But I am quite blown away at your results and find it hard to believe that what I see in the last pic can be entirely attributed to the collagen casings. :shock:
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Thu Mar 21, 2019 18:08

redzed wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 07:08
find it hard to believe that what I see in the last pic can be entirely attributed to the collagen casings.
mainly there is discoloration that I'm blaming for collagen casing -
StefanS wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 20:12
Then cross cut by double- walled collagen end- section of salami (it was little loose packed than regular part) - visible oxidation, fat smearing and discoloration.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by SMR » Tue Oct 29, 2019 22:11

Stefan/Redzed - I am planning on a culatello/fiocco project and have been studying the posts. I have a couple of questions. Seems like the consensus was to apply sugna at about 25% weight loss (at least that was the plan for the next time). Is that still the sweet spot?

It looks like you cleared the mold from the meat side prior to applying the sugna. Do you apply it only to the meat side or do you coat the entire thing?

I have found best results for drying to about 42% weight loss in my other projects. You had taken your 2 non-smoked culatelli out of the chamber closer to 36%. The smoked version was at 42%. Aside from the smoked flavor difference, did you find a preference in the moistness of the smoked versus the unsmoked?

Thanks for any help/tips you can provide.
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