Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

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Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Jgreen » Wed Feb 24, 2021 03:59

Hi,

I recently made a 1kg batch of sobrasada(Spanish nduja) with around 1/2 a teaspoon of t-spx, 3 grams dextrose, and 3 grams sugar.

It has been fermenting at around 72 degrees for 48 hours, and I just took a ph reading with my apera ph60. I'm fairly new to salami making and this was my first time using the ph meter.

The pH registered at 4.5, significantly lower than I was expecting it to be at 2 days. I was aiming for somewhere between 4.9-5.3.
Could it have something to do with the fat content(~70%) of this recipe. Is this normal for spreadable salami to drop in ph faster? Will this low ph result in a salami than is too tangy now?

Any insight would be appreciated.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by redzed » Wed Feb 24, 2021 17:07

Welcome to the forum! We are happy to have you aboard. Two issues here, one of which you already identified. Yes a high amount of fat a sausage does not need as much sugar, since the bacteria do not metabolize fat and convert it to lactic acid. And adding 6g of sugars is too much even if you had a 25% fat content. In your case 2g of dextrose would have probably been enough to take the pH down to 5.2. Usually 3g of fermentable sugar is enough to lower the pH to 5.3, even without a starter culture. More than likely the end product will have very distinct tang, but still very edible. Once the pH reaches 4.5, which is about as low as it can go, it does not rise back up at the same rate as a salami that was fermented to a pH of 4.9 and higher.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Jgreen » Wed Feb 24, 2021 17:21

Thank you for the response! That makes sense regarding why high fat sausages don't need as much sugar. After doing some more research I also found that paprika has ~10 % sucrose as well, and this recipe had 60g of paprika for 1kg of meat. Next time I will use 2 grams of dextrose instead and see where the ph lands. Never would've be aware of this if it wasn't for the ph meter! Glad I bought it already
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:46

When making the nduja, if you added pepper powder (spanish paprika or other...) there are fermentable sugars in the powder. in 8 grams of pepper powder there are 2.3 grams fructose and 2.7 grams of sucrose. Those sugars contributed to lactic acid production.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:53

Jgreen wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 17:21
Thank you for the response! That makes sense regarding why high fat sausages don't need as much sugar. After doing some more research I also found that paprika has ~10 % sucrose as well, and this recipe had 60g of paprika for 1kg of meat. Next time I will use 2 grams of dextrose instead and see where the ph lands. Never would've be aware of this if it wasn't for the ph meter! Glad I bought it already
Ah...I posted my reply above before seeing this post. 60/8g powder = 7.5; 7.5 x 2.3g fructose = 17.25g fructose. 7.5 x 2.7g = 20.25g sucrose.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Jgreen » Thu Feb 25, 2021 00:25

Indaswamp wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:53
Jgreen wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 17:21
Thank you for the response! That makes sense regarding why high fat sausages don't need as much sugar. After doing some more research I also found that paprika has ~10 % sucrose as well, and this recipe had 60g of paprika for 1kg of meat. Next time I will use 2 grams of dextrose instead and see where the ph lands. Never would've be aware of this if it wasn't for the ph meter! Glad I bought it already
Ah...I posted my reply above before seeing this post. 60/8g powder = 7.5; 7.5 x 2.3g fructose = 17.25g fructose. 7.5 x 2.7g = 20.25g sucrose.
Thanks! This is very interesting. More sugar than I would've thought. I'm surprised I haven't seen this mentioned in other places before, especially the recipe I used lol.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by StefanS » Thu Feb 25, 2021 22:13

Indaswamp wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:46
in 8 grams of pepper powder there are 2.3 grams fructose and 2.7 grams of sucrose.
hmmm - 62.5% of sugars?
Indaswamp wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:53
60/8g powder = 7.5; 7.5 x 2.3g fructose = 17.25g fructose. 7.5 x 2.7g = 20.25g sucrose.
can you check your math and info sources please? also - sucrose is disaccharide so if it is that high in pepper powder then we do not need sugar cane. Paprika is already powder IMO.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Fri Feb 26, 2021 04:40

StefanS wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 22:13
Indaswamp wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:46
in 8 grams of pepper powder there are 2.3 grams fructose and 2.7 grams of sucrose.
hmmm - 62.5% of sugars?
Indaswamp wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 19:53
60/8g powder = 7.5; 7.5 x 2.3g fructose = 17.25g fructose. 7.5 x 2.7g = 20.25g sucrose.
can you check your math and info sources please? also - sucrose is disaccharide so if it is that high in pepper powder then we do not need sugar cane. Paprika is already powder IMO.
The info I got was from a chef on another forum. I searched high and low for sugar information on red bell peppers and did not find much. I asked him and this is what he sent me:

"119g ripe raw Red bell pepper contain 2.3g fructose and 2.7g sucrose"

"A bell pepper is 92% water, 8% solids"

So assuming you dehydrate all the water off, that will concentrate the sugars. 119g X 0.08 = 9.52g powdered bell pepper

I actually made a mistake in my previous calculations.... should have took 60 grams pepper powder and divided by 9.52. Which is 6.3...

So 6.3 X 2.3g. fructose = 14.5grams fructose in 60 grams of pepper powder. And 17 grams sucrose.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Fri Feb 26, 2021 05:06

Also, According to a Video I watched on Youtube of a Nduja plant in Spilinga, Italy;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBQ-sqEYvCw

(use the auto translate function; select english)

The recipe for 100Kg. Nduja uses 30 Kg. peppers. That is a lot of peppers! No doubt the sugars in the peppers contribute to fermentation and because it was successful at preservation, they kept on making it this way...
Last edited by Indaswamp on Fri Feb 26, 2021 05:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Fri Feb 26, 2021 05:17

I asked my friend the chef his source, He sent me this:

https://foodstruct.com/food/peppers
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by redzed » Fri Feb 26, 2021 07:42

Not all paprika is the same, so we see different amounts of sugars in nutritional value tables. But it is generally accepted that the median content of sugars is 10%, primarily fructose and glucose. Both are simple sugars and metabolize lactic acid faster than the rest.
https://www.nutritionvalue.org/Spices%2 ... value.html
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by biggame » Fri Feb 26, 2021 21:32

Ugh, I used 350g/kg Calabrian chili paste in my batch the other day. A number of recipes called for 500g of paste, but I cut back a bit. After 48 hours ferment with T-SPX, 3g dextrose, and 3g sugar, the pH was 4.7. Turns out that the paste itself had a pH of 3.7, so that likely contributed. https://www.amazon.com/TUTTO-CALABRIA-C ... B004ROGVCG

Anyway, can anyone point me to a tried and true recipe for Nduja or sobrasada? The ones in my reference books and online vary "Wildly" in terms of ingredients: paste, powder, weights, etc. Thank you! John
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Lorenzoid » Fri Feb 26, 2021 23:30

biggame wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 21:32
. . . Turns out that the paste itself had a pH of 3.7, so that likely contributed. https://www.amazon.com/TUTTO-CALABRIA-C ... B004ROGVCG
That paste in a jar lists vinegar as an ingredient. I have never used Calabrian pepper or read much about its use in salumi, but I would guess powder would be a better form.
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by Indaswamp » Sat Feb 27, 2021 02:31

biggame wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 21:32
Ugh, I used 350g/kg Calabrian chili paste in my batch the other day. A number of recipes called for 500g of paste, but I cut back a bit. After 48 hours ferment with T-SPX, 3g dextrose, and 3g sugar, the pH was 4.7. Turns out that the paste itself had a pH of 3.7, so that likely contributed. https://www.amazon.com/TUTTO-CALABRIA-C ... B004ROGVCG

Anyway, can anyone point me to a tried and true recipe for Nduja or sobrasada? The ones in my reference books and online vary "Wildly" in terms of ingredients: paste, powder, weights, etc. Thank you! John
Member cajuneric has a video out of his nduja:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49ypnKGt7hQ
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Re: Very low ph sobrasada after 2 days using t-spx

Post by biggame » Sat Feb 27, 2021 08:37

Yes, I used 2 Guys recipe as a starting point. We shall see, hopefully it will be delicious. I was just surprised by the low pH, and learned my lesson to consider the effect of ingredients on pH and sugar levels. I also will try to take more pH readings throughout the process.
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