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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 22:30
by Oxide
Devo wrote:Very good reply there CW, instead of going on with quotes from a book lets just delete this post and be done with it. I guess I'm going to have to agree to disagree.
Good day
Can't do it -- your thread is a very valuable learning experience for other folks. Best you can hope for is to change your name and try to hide. :mrgreen:

I think a lot of why you didn't experience adverse problems is because the wings are intact, not minced. Mincing them would have introduced potential pathogens into the middle meat where they would be more than happy in your oil-less cooker to reproduce in a way that makes bunnies jealous. That could have made you sick. Just thinking ...

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 22:46
by Chuckwagon
Hi Devo,
You wrote:
I guess I'm going to have to agree to disagree.
Good day
And later...
It really shound not be called cold smoking at all as that gives a false positive to what you want to accomplish. It should be called smoking in the danger zone.
Enough said. CW delete this post please and thank you
Your are entirely most welcome sir. Yes, I do agree that we should drop this topic as we will both have elevated blood pressure by the end of the day, however, I cannot in good conscience, delete a post of this type because you haven`t broken any rules. You simply stated your opinion. I respect that - but I simply just don`t agree with your opinion. I`ve backed mine up with scientific conclusive fact. Yet, you don`t agree with it. Sobeit. However, I think nonetheless of you and consider you a friend with terrific cooking knowledge and ability. I`m just not going to smoke raw chicken. :lol:
It`s a very good thing to disagree with others at times. Much research and knowledge has come about by the very process. So, carry on Dev, you snowbound wrangler :wink: and thank you for your input and interest in this forum.

I AM Your friend,
UpChuck WagonWheelRut

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 23:09
by Devo
Always in joy your input CW. Heres a little somethng to chew on :wink:

Pathogenic (harmful) bacteria grow best in the temperature range 59 - 113F (15 - 45C) except for Campylobacter which grows well up to 117F. (47C)

The optimum temperature for bacterial growth is 98.6F/37C which is human body temperature, apart from Campylobacter which has an optimum temperature of 107F/42C. This explains why Campylobacter is commonly associated with food poisoning from poultry; birds (avians) have a slightly higher ambient body temperature than humans at around 107F/42C.

This fact is utilized by Microbiology Laboratories; they isolate most bacteria at 98.6F/37C but isolate Campylobacter in incubators set at 107F/42F.
Bacteria divide every 15 - 30 minutes at optimum temp. (98.6F/37C)
Bacteria grow slowly at 113-122F (45-50C), but growth rate falls rapidly above 113F (45C)
Only a few bacteria can grow at more than 122F/50C.

However, the "danger zone"where harmful bacteria can multiply is almost always quoted as 40-140F. (5-60C) This is the temperature range to remember and food must not be allowed to linger in this zone. The danger zone is also called the safety zone set out with a + and - ends to make sure we all all safe.

So we do agree there is a danger zone, was I in any danger for the short period they sat at that temp. No and this is where you and I don't see eye to eye.

Medical Microbiology, Mims et al.
Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases, Mandell, Bennett and Dolin. Fourth Edition.
Cold Smoking and Salt Curing Meat, Fish and Game. A.D.Livingston.
Home Smoking and Curing. Keith Erlandson.

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 00:02
by Chuckwagon
Devo, you wrote:
... was I in any danger for the short period they sat at that temp. No and this is where you and I don't see eye to eye.

Devo, your "short time period" is 2 hours long. During that time any pathogen may double it`s growth every fifteen to twenty minutes. In some types, it can even occur inside your refrigerator! Consider this: if your chicken had but ten single bacterium at the beginning of your two-hour "short time period", at the end of the 120 minutes, you would now have 640 bacteria. I conclude that indeed you were in danger. However, I`ll certainly let you have the last word and let the subject rest.

Best Wishes,

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 00:12
by Devo
Ok friend, just to lighten this up a bit here is a example of how two people can read the same thing and come up with different answers.


Rearrange the letters to spell out an important part of the human body which is even more useful when erect.


People who wrote SPINE became doctors....

The rest are all my friends :wink:

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 05:02
by checkerfred
Hey CW! I have Rytek's book and learned about the dangerzone. I recently smoked some wings at 225F and they turned out great. However, would you please explain these paragraphs you wrote earlier a little more for me?
Most pathogenic bacteria, including Salmonella, Escherichia coli 0157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes, and Campylobacter, can be fairly easily destroyed using a mild cooking process. Sure, maintaining a minimum temperature within the range of 130-165º F (54 -74º C) for a specific amount of time will kill them. However, cooking will not destroy these toxins once they have formed in food.
This is confusing to me....seems like if you use this temperature to kill them, the toxins wouldn't form? I keep reading this as cooking will kill them but that last sentence throws me off sound like cooking won't kill them. Are the toxins different from the bacteria? When do they form?
Moreover, in the case of clostridium botulinum, although the toxin itself may rapidly destroyed by heat, as in thorough cooking, it should be remembered that the spores which produce the toxin are heat-tolerant and will survive even boiling at 212º F (100º C) for an extended period of time.
I'm confused again here....what causes the spores? How do you get rid of, or keep from getting the spores? It seems like if you killed the botulinum, you wouldn't have any problems. Also, if the danger zone is over 140F, seems like you'd be safe at 212F.

I'm not saying your wrong or trying to argue, I just want to understand this. It doesn't take much to confuse me nowadays either. :grin:

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 08:50
by Chuckwagon
Hi Checkerfred,
Did you read the first page of this topic? (Click on the arrow for the previous page.)

If someone places raw (moist) meat into a smoker between the temperatures of 40°F and 140°F (4°C. to 60°C.) called the "danger zone", it does not constitute "cooking" and is an open invitation for the development of pathogenic bacteria. Worse, when smoke is introduced, it becomes an anaerobic atmosphere for two hours where conditions for the development of several types of bacteria may develop, including clostridium botulinum. Smoke cuts off oxygen - it`s that simple.

Checkerfred, you "cooked" the wings at 225°F. Simultaneously you may have smoked them, but 225°F is 85 degrees higher than the danger zone and that constitutes "cooking".

When I COOK a chicken in my oven, I don`t cure it first because I don`t SMOKE it RAW for two hours...
(b.) in an anaerobic atmosphere. And because the chicken is raw, it is also
(c.) moist.

These three conditions comprise the milieu specifically to be avoided to prevent inevitable bacterial growth produced under these conditions. The first rule of basic sausagemaking - page 20 of "Great Sausage Recipes And Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas states: "Don`t forget this one cardinal rule: IF IT CAN`T BE CURED, DON`T SMOKE IT."

You can bet Friday night's duck that if I "smoke" a chicken (in the danger zone), I'm going to cure it with sodium nitrite first, most probably while I brine it in a salt solution.

Okay, now understand how spores work. Most bacteria are destroyed by the cooking process. If not, we would have perished long ago. However, Mama Nature is a pretty smart ol` gal. In order for her to protect certain strains of bacteria, she has developed a foolproof system - that of protective "spores". These "special" cells actually wrap themselves in a protective blanket or shell - sort of like a cocoon. This spore "cocoon" protects its host bacterium during unsympathetic environmental conditions such as extreme heat. In other words, spores are developed for surviving extended periods necessary for their reproduction. When environmental conditions improve, the cells return to normalcy. However, some spores are so resilient, even boiling water will not destroy them. Thus, once a spore has formed, even cooking may not protect us against the toxins produced. Thus, the case of clostridium botulinum. Believe it or not, there are bacterial spores that have been on earth for millions of years and have even become hardened to radiation! :shock:

I'm sorry if I come off sounding like a teacher. I taught for years at a college and old habits are hard to break. Now I am old and cranky because I'm going bald. It's just a good thing I've got my "babe magnet" mustache to keep me knee-deep in chicks during my old age! Whew... :roll:

Best Wishes,

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 02:40
by checkerfred
Thanks for the response CW and no problem on the teacher stuff....I married a teacher!

Yes, I did read the first page. So the spores are bad and you want to prevent the meat from developing the spores since some can't be destroyed by extended heat. So what prevents these spores in the first place? Just proper handling, cooking, and nitrites where necessary?

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 04:35
by snagman

I am curious, why did you cold smoke the wings ? Any cold smoking I've done was over some six to eight hours, in my experience that is the minimum time meats need for the smoke to penetrate. Is it because of the unit you used to cook them afterwards, and did they have a smoked flavour ?
Regards, Gus

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 04:48
by ssorllih
The other night I put some shrimp into the smoker for a half hour to acquire a touch of smoke flavor. Try this: cure and dry some chicken wings using only the portion containing the ulna and the radius. Smoke two for 30 minutes and finish them in another cooker. The next pairs at 30 minute intervals and finished without added smoke. I am finding that smoke is like garlic, you can hardly get too much but a little certainly makes its mark.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 04:54
by Chuckwagon
Smoking wings is fine... as long as it's done AFTER the curing and DURING or AFTER cooking. If toxins have developed from the protective spores during cooking BEFORE the meat was cured with nitrite, then you could have a real problem. In this case the toxins will not be destroyed by cooking.
Checkerfred asked:
So what prevents these spores in the first place? Just proper handling, cooking, and nitrites where necessary?
Exactly! :wink:

Best Wishes,