Yogourt as culture

weoochaun
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Yogourt as culture

Post by weoochaun » Thu May 30, 2013 02:11

I have been using yoghurt as my starter culture for quick ferment pepperoni.

I live in Burma, hence my name, which means "sausage", literally "pork intestine stick".

Bio-cultures are not available and the post is not reliable. I also like the idea that my yoghurt is different to the yoghurt made in a Californian kitchen. So making use of the indigenous bacteria to this region.

Precise dosing is pretty difficult but I use about a 1/2 cup for 10KG.

Wondered if anyone has any opinions on this.
Last edited by weoochaun on Mon Apr 06, 2015 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Butterbean » Thu May 30, 2013 02:18

I think its fine to do it. You have more control with purchased stuff I would think but it is what it is no matter what name is on the container.
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Post by weoochaun » Thu May 30, 2013 05:16

I live in a culture where natural cultures are the norm! Most of the yoghurt is made in an artisan style.

Unfortunately with the race to modernisation there are more supermarkets opening with branded products. Those branded products will not doubt succumb to the lowest common denominator of price and become bland shadows of their former selves! OK... enough with the rant!

I recently made my sausage at a different time of day and the yoghurt was very liquid. I thought it was because it had not fermented enough so I put about double the amount in. The sausage turned out fairly OK but it was pretty sour. Now I think that the yoghurt had over fermented and gone through the solid stage.

I also thought that I was controlling the tanginesss with the amount of dextrose I was adding but obviously there are other factors at work with my method.
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Post by redzed » Thu May 30, 2013 16:46

I am far from being an expert here, but the bacteria found in yogurt is not the same as the strains in starter cultures. And so far I have not been able to find any technical information stating that yogurt can be used to start fermentation of the meat. It seems plausible that adding yogurt or whey into the sausage will introduce a type of lactic bacteria into the mix that may indeed cause the level of acidity to rise, preventing spoilage, but these are two different processes.

There are people on the Polish site that have used fermented milk products in making dry cured sausages and with apparent success, but none of them took any PH readings of the process which would have helped in understanding whether there were changes in the acidity.

I am researching on making a traditional Polish dry cured sausage called Kindziuk and would like to use whey or yogurt, but at this stage I don't know enough about the process. If I find any further info on the subject I will be happy to share it.
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Post by weoochaun » Fri May 31, 2013 03:07

redzed wrote:I am far from being an expert here, but the bacteria found in yogurt is not the same as the strains in starter cultures.

There are people on the Polish site that have used fermented milk products in making dry cured sausages and with apparent success, but none of them took any PH readings of the process which would have helped in understanding whether there were changes in the acidity.
.
As I understand it the bought cultures consist of different strains of lactobacillae in order to get the acid to the required level in a timely fashion. I am aiming for a 3 day ferment. Yoghurt usually gets fermented overnight so 3 days should be (and is, in my experience) enough time for the sausage to get to a safe pH level. The strains may not be the same as a bought culture but they get the job done.

The other way yoghurt would differ from a purchased culture is that it may not have any pediococcus or staphlococcus which I presume are mainly used for flavour enhancement (not sure if this is correct). However with a fast ferment, I don't think these other bacteria get a chance to do their thing anyway.

Are you Polish? The 'google translate' isn't really up to the polish site. I assume that the fermented milk product is yoghurt but for long curing I would think that the acidity level would rise too quickly for the other bacteria to have time to work. Would love to hear
more.

EDIT: It seems that pediococcus is also used as an acidifyer.
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Post by redzed » Fri May 31, 2013 16:11

My point is that I would like to see a technical work on using yoghurt as a starter. There are folks on other sausage making sites that also claim to have had success using it, but not one provided PH readings or any scientific evidence. I know that yoghurt contains lactobacillus, but my question is how well does this bacteria, derived from milk, multiply and grow in meat? And does it in fact quickly raise the acidity level?

What I also wonder about is that I am not aware of any commercial or traditional sausage makers using cultured milk products as starters. They either use the bacteria specifically made for this application or none at all. And the commercial starters were only developed in the 1920's, while fermented milk has been around for millenniums. So why did the guys in Southern Europe who have been crafting salumi for centuries, not use yoghurt, kefir, whey, buttermilk or cheese to lower the PH?

I don't doubt that it may work, and I will be probably trying it, but I certainly would like more info on the subject. Scattered and poorly documented empirical evidence is not enough.

A couple of months ago someone posted a link on the Polish site to a paper that made reference to this, but I was busy and did not read it. Now I can't find it. I will PM the poster and hopefully get another chance to read it. If there is anything relevant there I will relate it here.

I think this is an interesting subject and I hope that if anyone else on this forum can offer any information it would be appreciated.
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Post by ssorllih » Fri May 31, 2013 16:27

I think that this harks back to the days before microbiology and commercial suppliers of pure cultures. I have suggested that somewhere in the distant past a careless sausage maker spilled some of his sauerkraut into the sausage he was mixing for summer sausage while eating his lunch. The sausage turned out better so they continued to do it.
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Post by weoochaun » Sun Jun 02, 2013 06:05

I just cooked another batch of 3 day ferment. 1/2 cup of solid yoghurt per 10Kg. It has certainly done it's job. Nice tang - not too sour - make sure your starter culture (yogurt) is not too sour to start with.

I also read up on the net that 2 strains of bacteria are required. In several countries, in order to name your fermented milk as yogurt: it must contain Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus. I imagine that there may also be many other strains in there as well. Also these 2 basic strains may have sub groups which vary in taste from region to region.

I also made another startling discovery on the net that yoghurt is spelled yogurt. Who knew!

I still have difficulty with the binding and cutting quality of my sausage. I wonder if this has anything to do with the yoghurt
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Post by redzed » Sun Jun 02, 2013 07:30

Interesting, even though I think that your approach is based on conjecture. Please post photos and reports of your project.
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Post by redzed » Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:45

I have read a considerable number of posts on different sausage forums and the Polish WD site by individuals who use whey, buttermilk and yoghurt as starter cultures for dry cured sausages. Many claim that this method works in activating the lactic bacteria in the meat. However, I have yet to see one post where the process was well documented with the rate of pH drop, fermenting temperature analysis, and most of all, which lactobacillus strain was used?

Yesterday I ran across a scientific paper in the form of a 2001 Ph.D. dissertation from Helsinki University. Strangely enough I have never seen it before, so I am assuming that it has been made available on the internet only recently.

https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/1 ... sequence=2

What I really found fascinating here is that the author tested a probiotic lactic culture, namely lactobacillus rhamnosus in the production of dry sausage with positive results an with a flavour profile not unlike that prepared with TSP-X. I should mention that the primary purpose of the study was not to find a replacement for the established meat starter cultures but to look at developing meat products containing the health benefiting probiotics.

I checked in the fridge and found a container of plain yoghurt and read the ingredients, where it stated that it contains "active bacterial cultures". I phoned the consumer question line and after a bit of delay while she consulted others, the nice lady gave me the names of the four cultures present in that particular yoghurt. And lactobacillus rhamnosus was one of them! Now, would it not be great if we could produce a proper and safe salami with only a bit of yoghurt, doing away with expensive Bactoferm products, storage hassles and expiry dates?

This is all very exciting, and very soon I will undertake an experiment where I will inoculate a test batch of sausage with this yoghurt and see what happens!
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Post by alhunter63 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 20:18

Chris,

I made a batch of salami last year and added a touch of yoghurt to the T-SPX as added insurance and it turned out fine. I still can't get a straight answer on the shelf life of the
T-SPX. I bought the stuff last April about 10-months ago and it says on the package "best if used by April 2014" but everywhere else I have read says it's only good for 6-months!!
According to everyone here there is really no way to test the T-SPX, short of a microscope, so I just ordered some more from the sausage maker to be on the safe side, but I do agree with you that if we can use yoghurt instead of T-SPX that would be wonderfull!!

Angelo
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Post by Bob K » Tue Feb 11, 2014 20:21

The only problem with ongoing or reused cultures...which work well for short fermented products like Yogurt or sourdough bread....is cross contamination...yeast and unwanted bacteria getting into the mix.

And Angelo

The info on the package and on the CH Hansen website is 18 months, before opening. I think the 6 month period is for after opening
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Post by redzed » Wed Feb 12, 2014 03:13

Bob K wrote:The only problem with ongoing or reused cultures...which work well for short fermented products like Yogurt or sourdough bread....is cross contamination...yeast and unwanted bacteria getting into the mix.
True, but rogue bacteria happen in any situation, and if the bacteria in the yoghurt is from a fresh batch and all precautions are taken, it might work. I will probably start my experiment in a few days. Will make a simple Salame Genoa, inoculate half with yoghurt containg lactobacillus rhamnosus and half with T-SPX. Can't wait to see the results!
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Post by alhunter63 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 23:27

Yes Bob you are right :roll: it is after opening, I missed that part. I wonder why though?? If you were to open that sucker real quick & grab a little & get it right back in the freezer before it has a chance to thaw it shouldn't matter.
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Post by DelNorte » Thu Feb 13, 2014 15:13

This is definitely a most interesting subject for me! I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread to see what kind of conclusions you guys come to.

Now kick me for being the newbie to sausage making, but I do have a question about the yogurt used - does it need to be the plain stuff without sugar?

It's been some time since I've seen the sugarless kind here in Uruguay. Maybe I could contact the local Conaprole company and see if they still make it.

Also, could one use a homemade version of yogurt?
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