Yogourt as culture

Reggie
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Post by Reggie » Wed Dec 03, 2014 22:24

Redzed,

I have used a thermophilic culture to make yogurt in a crock pot. From the whey of that yogurt I have made a good round of sauerkraut. I was very grateful to read the entire narrative of your experiment with yogurt/probiotic supplements/SPX culture. I have used both LHP and SPX in different sausage fermentations over the last 3 years using an improvised fermentation chamber that consists of a crock pot or two underneath a tent made of a quilt and sheet that encompasses the meat on smoke sticks spanning two saw horses. It has worked quite nicely so far. I want to make some basic summer sausage (venison and pork) to try the probiotic capsules method that you tested...and am wondering if you have any advice for me regarding the fermentation time, temp and humidity in using this method. Worried a little bit about Listeria and E-coli. Thank you bunches for generously sharing your experiment! BTW, I don't have a PH meter.

Cheers, Reggie :smile:
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Post by redzed » Thu Dec 04, 2014 06:25

Hello Reggie and welcome to the WD forum! We are happy to have you aboard. To begin with, I don't promote the use of yogourt cultures as an equivalent or substitute to commercially prepared starter cultures. These have been developed and tested in laboratories and contain the right bacteria and the right amounts. Using them you will have consistent results and if you follow correct procedure, they are almost foolproof.While a number of yogourt brands do contain active bacteria that will work to lower pH levels, they also contain other bacteria that do not survive the high salt and nitrate/nitrite content, and others can impart unpleasant odours and flavors. Having said that, I was successful in making four different batches using cultures from yogourt and probiotic supplement capsules. But it was still a crude experiment, not having any scientific tools or measurements. I think that your plan to use probiotics to ferment your summer sausage just makes things more complicated for you. You could easily lower the pH and give it that bit of tang by using a fast acting culture or by simply adding some DGL.

But if you want to experiment, find probiotics that contain lactobacillus curvatus, l. farciminis, l. rhamnosus, l. casei/paracasei, l. plantarum and bifidobacterium lactis. Add .3 to .4% dextrose, and ferment at 80-90F. In one of my batches I initially tried to ferment with yogourt cultures at 72F and the pH drop was negligible after 16 hours, but dropped rapidly once I increased the temp to 85F. Also get your humidity as high as you can, 90-95% will probably work best. I assume that since it is a summer sausage that you will be making, you will be smoking it to and IT of 150 (160 if using venison), then listeria and ecoli should not be a concern.

Hope this helps. Please post pics and results of your efforts. I would also highly recommend that you read Stanley Marianski and Adam Marianski, The Art of Making Fermented Sausages. If you plan to continue with this hobby, the 15 bucks you spend on it will be the best investment you will have made.
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Cultures

Post by Reggie » Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:10

redzed wrote:Hello Reggie and welcome to the WD forum! We are happy to have you aboard. To begin with, I don't promote the use of yogourt cultures as an equivalent or substitute to commercially prepared starter cultures. These have been developed and tested in laboratories and contain the right bacteria and the right amounts. Using them you will have consistent results and if you follow correct procedure, they are almost foolproof.While a number of yogourt brands do contain active bacteria that will work to lower pH levels, they also contain other bacteria that do not survive the high salt and nitrate/nitrite content, and others can impart unpleasant odours and flavors. Having said that, I was successful in making four different batches using cultures from yogourt and probiotic supplement capsules. But it was still a crude experiment, not having any scientific tools or measurements. I think that your plan to use probiotics to ferment your summer sausage just makes things more complicated for you. You could easily lower the pH and give it that bit of tang by using a fast acting culture or by simply adding some DGL.

But if you want to experiment, find probiotics that contain lactobacillus curvatus, l. farciminis, l. rhamnosus, l. casei/paracasei, l. plantarum and bifidobacterium lactis. Add .3 to .4% dextrose, and ferment at 80-90F. In one of my batches I initially tried to ferment with yogourt cultures at 72F and the pH drop was negligible after 16 hours, but dropped rapidly once I increased the temp to 85F. Also get your humidity as high as you can, 90-95% will probably work best. I assume that since it is a summer sausage that you will be making, you will be smoking it to and IT of 150 (160 if using venison), then listeria and ecoli should not be a concern.

Hope this helps. Please post pics and results of your efforts. I would also highly recommend that you read Stanley Marianski and Adam Marianski, The Art of Making Fermented Sausages. If you plan to continue with this hobby, the 15 bucks you spend on it will be the best investment you will have made.


Redzed, thanks for the welcome. At @ $25 a pop (with shipping) I think the Hansen Cultures are expensive. I usually get 'em from Butcher-Packer. Is there a less expensive source? Also, what is DGL? I am going to try the capsule route using your specific instructions on the bacteria types. Once I get some more venison, I will prepare the batch and will try to post pictures. I have the Marianski Book and have used his recipes to make Pepperoni, Spanish Chorizo, Semi-dry Polish and Summer Sausage. Have always used the Hansen cultures and will probably revert to that....but would like to have an alternative method. Thanks again for the generous amount of time it took you to do the experiment....and then document it here!
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Post by Bob K » Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:29

Igor Duńczyk
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Post by Igor Duńczyk » Fri Dec 05, 2014 01:41

Hi Reggie,
Just a highlightning of the strains in Redzed´s previous posting that I personally would place emphasis on, and in the best case single out (which is probably not too realistic as they usually come in combinations):
redzed wrote:probiotics that contain lactobacillus curvatus, l. farciminis, l. rhamnosus, l. casei/paracasei, l. plantarum and bifidobacterium lactis
as those two are the classical acidifying strains of many starter cultures for meat products. Whereas the other mentioned may be regarded more as additional probiotic cultures. Lactobacillus curvatus and Lactobacillus plantarum are sturdy producers of lactic acid and thriving ideally on dextrose. That said L.plantarum can also metabolize lactose.

Next step is, if you manage to find some probiotic combinations where Lactobacillus curvatus and Lactobacillus plantarum are included, that you make sure that these strains are added in a concentration that is not below 10x5 per gram meat/mass to be able to dominate, so the fermentation will not be messed up by competing wild bacteria.
Stick to those producers of probiotics who state the total cell count on the product label so you´ve got something to calculate on, and avoid those suppliers who just state the names of the strains. They may sell you a count that is so low that it doesn´t count :mrgreen:

Apart from this I won´t go into lenghts on the importance of bacteria concentration figures (Anybody else out there: Feel free to make a statement!) but just again repeat the Number One rule: keep your equipment as clean as possible and make sure that your raw material is as uncontaminated as possible: It will make life a lot easier for the cultures you add :smile:
Wishing you a Good Day!
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Post by Reggie » Sat Dec 06, 2014 09:55

Igor Duńczyk wrote:Hi Reggie,
Just a highlightning of the strains in Redzed´s previous posting that I personally would place emphasis on, and in the best case single out (which is probably not too realistic as they usually come in combinations):
redzed wrote:probiotics that contain lactobacillus curvatus, l. farciminis, l. rhamnosus, l. casei/paracasei, l. plantarum and bifidobacterium lactis
as those two are the classical acidifying strains of many starter cultures for meat products. Whereas the other mentioned may be regarded more as additional probiotic cultures. Lactobacillus curvatus and Lactobacillus plantarum are sturdy producers of lactic acid and thriving ideally on dextrose. That said L.plantarum can also metabolize lactose.

Next step is, if you manage to find some probiotic combinations where Lactobacillus curvatus and Lactobacillus plantarum are included, that you make sure that these strains are added in a concentration that is not below 10x5 per gram meat/mass to be able to dominate, so the fermentation will not be messed up by competing wild bacteria.
Stick to those producers of probiotics who state the total cell count on the product label so you´ve got something to calculate on, and avoid those suppliers who just state the names of the strains. They may sell you a count that is so low that it doesn´t count :mrgreen:

Apart from this I won´t go into lenghts on the importance of bacteria concentration figures (Anybody else out there: Feel free to make a statement!) but just again repeat the Number One rule: keep your equipment as clean as possible and make sure that your raw material is as uncontaminated as possible: It will make life a lot easier for the cultures you add :smile:
Igor, that sounds like excellent advice. I ordered some LHP yesterday and will start my search today for the probiotic capsules with the culture concentrations you specify (I don't want to waste an entire batch if the experiment goes bad.) I have been using the Marianski recipes for most of what I do lately, especially summer sausage - but have taken liberties with the meat ratios. I buy a hog every thanksgiving and the meat goes fast...so I try to stretch it with venison. I have been using 50/50 pork to venison. One time I tried just venison with, say, 20% pork back fat and it didn't come out so well. Is it possible to use that type of ratio and produce a good result.....for summer sausage?
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Post by Bob K » Sat Dec 06, 2014 17:04

Reggie-
I your original post you were concerned about lysteria.

Just so you are aware F-LC is very similar to LHP and also has the ability to control Listeria.... it has also been on sale at B&P for some time now for $11.00
Reggie wrote: One time I tried just venison with, say, 20% pork back fat and it didn't come out so well. Is it possible to use that type of ratio and produce a good result.....for summer sausage?
I have done:
30% pork
20% backfat
50% venison

.....with good results, the venison needs the fat and moisture from the pork...or else its dry and crumbly.
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Post by Reggie » Sat Dec 06, 2014 22:35

Bob K wrote:Reggie-
I your original post you were concerned about lysteria.

Just so you are aware F-LC is very similar to LHP and also has the ability to control Listeria.... it has also been on sale at B&P for some time now for $11.00
Reggie wrote: One time I tried just venison with, say, 20% pork back fat and it didn't come out so well. Is it possible to use that type of ratio and produce a good result.....for summer sausage?
I have done:
30% pork
20% backfat
50% venison

.....with good results, the venison needs the fat and moisture from the pork...or else its dry and crumbly.
Bob, thank you for your reply. I was mistaken. F-LC is what I just bought....and thank you for the meat ratio info. I have been using F-LC for the last year and have had two excellent batches with just the right acidification. Most recently though, and on a previous occasion last year, I have noticed an "off" taste that I am now associating in my mind with the F-LC Culture and maybe a "too long" fermentation at "too high a temperature. Marianski recommends a 24 hour ferment at above 90 degrees F with nearly 100% humidity. My "contrived" fermentation chamber is a tent made of an old quilt with 1 or two crock pots underneath running on High. The temp always seems to stay up around 100 degrees fahrenheit. When I have aborted the process at between 9 and 12 hours, there is good acidification w/o an off taste. When I let it go for longer than that, there seems to be an off taste that I have come to associate with the culture. Any recommendations about my practices and observations would be appreciated. Thanks, Reggie
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Post by Bob K » Sat Dec 06, 2014 23:30

Reggie
100f is just too warm. Marianski calls for a temp of around 85 for 24 hrs.
You could also cut back on the sugar 1% dextrose and .5 sugar creates quite a tang!!
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