"Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Kunde

Post by Kunde » Mon Oct 03, 2016 07:20

el Ducko wrote: Nitrate produces nitrite, which produces nitrous oxide, which is consumed. Here is a reaction scheme, as diagrammed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrite

Nitrate-goes to nitrite:
. . . . . . . . .NO3- + 3H+ + 2e <-> HNO2 + H2O

Nitrite then generates nitrous oxide by a series of steps:
. . . . . . . . .2HNO2+ 4H+ + 4e <-> H2N2O2 + 2H2O
. . . . . . . . .N2O4 + 2H+ + 2e <-> 2HNO2
. . . . . . . . .2HNO2+ 4H+ + 4e <-> N2O + 3H2O
...which is what reacts with the myoglobin, as we are often told. Indeed, these are shown as reversible reactions. However, because N2O is consumed, everything flows to the right, the nitrate being consumed to maintain the supply of nitrite or, if there is no nitrate present, the nitrite is consumed preferentially to produce N2O as it is consumed.
so if just want red color, when smoking the meat, need add only N2O some way?
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Post by redzed » Tue Oct 04, 2016 21:24

Kunde, I'm not totally understanding your question, I think the subject has been well discussed in this thread. But if you want to add only colour to your product, without any of the protective properties of nitrite, you can do that by adding as little as .64gm/kg (40ppm). Nitrite also has antioxidative capacity and improves colour stability during storage. Ascorbates can also be used for colour enhancement and retention.
Kunde

Post by Kunde » Wed Oct 05, 2016 07:15

I mean that if can add N2O just before smoking event and we can keep red color or not?
As you say all is clear, just curiously asked this after look those reactions of nitrates ;-)
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Post by redzed » Wed Oct 05, 2016 13:42

Unlike nitrate, nitrite penetrates meat quickly. However, you still need to give it a minimum amount of time to work. For most of my sausages I still follow the Polish tradition of adding the cure and salt to cubed meat and refrigerating it for 48 hours before grinding. I am convinced that prepared this way, the sausage will have more flavour, have a better texture and will grind better. Most North American recipes will tell you to add the nitrite just before grinding, then you stuff hang to dry the casing and then smoke. If doing it this way I would rather hang the sausage in a cool room overnight to set it and allow the nitrite to do its job. If you are really pressed for time, it is best to allow a minimum time of 4 hours between adding the cure and smoking. Commercial producers now almost always add sodium erythobate which is a curing accelerant when they grind, mix, stuff and smoke. But their products are never as good as those made in a small shop where more time is allowed before smoking.
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Post by Butterbean » Thu Oct 06, 2016 01:17

redzed wrote:However, you still need to give it a minimum amount of time to work. For most of my sausages I still follow the Polish tradition of adding the cure and salt to cubed meat and refrigerating it for 48 hours before grinding. I am convinced that prepared this way, the sausage will have more flavour, have a better texture and will grind better.
Redzed, science confirms your opinion. Was just reading about this very thing in J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's book The Food Lab where he discusses this very thing. Based on his research, sausages made from meat which is salted. A two hour wait will reduce the moisture loss by 50%, 4 hours a full 75% beyond 8 hours the changes become incremental shaving half a percent every two hours and peaks at a moisture loss of 3.6%.

He touches on the myosin development of pre-salted meat versus quick salted meat but doesn't dwell on this in much detail but it would be reasonable to assume, i think, the myosin development you have prior to grinding the better the sausage would be.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread just thought you might find this interesting.
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by coxy1989 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 22:53

I really enjoyed this thread - especially the heroic contributions from Igor Duńczyk and el Ducko!

If I may, I’d like to highlight a study which rather contradicts the consensus in the thread with respect to the pros and cons of including an antioxidant in homemade sausage which include a nitrate/nitrite salt.

The study to which I refer publishes results which indicate that when 10% lipid (if your homemade sausages are going to be delicious you’ll want at least 10% lipid!) is present in the mixture, the presence of ascorbic acid INCREASES (by several orders of magnitude) rather than decreases the yield of carcinogenic nitrosamine species - the exact inverse of what we as home sausage makers would hope to achieve by including an anti-oxidant!

This is especially relevant to us as hobbyists - industry have other incentives to include an anti-oxidant in spite of this result: specifically, to increase shelf life by preventing loss of colour or rancidity of fat. If you are anything like me - your homemade sausages get eaten up far too quickly for one to be motivated take measures to extend shelf life!

The study is available for free here for those interested in diving into the detail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095705/

Here is a brief extract which summarises the result:

"... when 10% lipid was present, ascorbic acid increased the amount of N‐nitrosodimethylamine, N‐nitrosodiethylamine and N‐nitrosopiperidine formed by approximately 8‐, 60‐ and 140‐fold, respectively, compared with absence of ascorbic acid."

I would be very interested in the learned members of this forum’s opinion on the above. Is it possible that the well established recommendation with respect to the inclusion of an anti-oxidant in cured sausage is based on in vitro experiments which only demonstrated the diminished nitrosamine yield in the aqueous rather than the lipid phase?! Is there other evidence available - ideally an in vivo result that demonstrates otherwise?

Many Thanks,

Coxy
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by SmokenEdge » Thu Feb 27, 2020 23:18

To my understanding, ascorbic acid should never be used in meat curing. Further, I know of nobody who has advocated for the use of ascorbic acid in combination with nitrites.
However the use of sodium ascorbic, or sodium erythorbate is used as both a cure accelerator, and preservative, with antioxidant qualities.
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by Bob K » Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:56

Welcome to the Forum!
Actually Ascorbic acid is used and is approved by the FDA as a cure accelerator. However it should not be mixed at the same time as you are adding nitrites as they react violently and cause fumes.
For home purposes sodium erythorbate is a safer bet.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/conne ... OD=AJPERES

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... /additives
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by SmokenEdge » Sat Feb 29, 2020 23:32

Thank you Bob K.
I have not looked into commercial curing. Everything I have read on hobby curing says to stay away from the acid because of the fumes in the reaction between nitrites and ascorbic acid.
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by cajuneric » Fri Jun 05, 2020 17:57

el Ducko wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2013 16:08
Nitrite then generates nitrous oxide by a series of steps:
. . . . . . . . .2HNO2+ 4H+ + 4e <-> H2N2O2 + 2H2O
. . . . . . . . .N2O4 + 2H+ + 2e <-> 2HNO2
. . . . . . . . .2HNO2+ 4H+ + 4e <-> N2O + 3H2O
...which is what reacts with the myoglobin, as we are often told. Indeed, these are shown as reversible reactions. However, because N2O is consumed, everything flows to the right, the nitrate being consumed to maintain the supply of nitrite or, if there is no nitrate present, the nitrite is consumed preferentially to produce N2O as it is consumed.
Just so I'm clear it's the gas NO (nitric oxide) that's produced through the conversion of nitrites correct. Not the gas N2O (nitrous Oxide or laughing gas).
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Ascorbic acid

Post by Paucho » Sun Sep 06, 2020 04:37

I would like to ask
You said :
Personally I would NEVER EVER leave out neither:
Ascorbic Acid
Sodium Ascorbate or
Sodium Erythorbate
in any product made with the use of cure (sodium nitrite & potassium nitrate)
But then you said :
Ascorbic acid is a NO GO (skulls and crossbones) in any fermented product where it may get into direct contact with sodium nitrate.
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Re: "Anti-Oxidants - Pros and Cons"

Post by Bob K » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:58

I believe were quoting Igor further back in this thread. To answer your question:
Bob K wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:56
Welcome to the Forum!
Actually Ascorbic acid is used and is approved by the FDA as a cure accelerator. However it should not be mixed at the same time as you are adding nitrites as they react violently and cause fumes.
For home purposes sodium erythorbate is a safer bet.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/conne ... OD=AJPERES

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... /additives
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