I have been making fermented sausages for about a year now and have had some success. My only complaint is that my sausage is always a little too tangy. I was recently talking to a local chef whose restaurant specializes in charcuterie and specifically dry cured and fermented sausage and we were discussing this. He indicated that his sausage does not use the standard bactorferm cultures because he prefers to use a natural sucrose as opposed to dextrose. He also stated that he is using a piece of previously dried sausage as the starter for the new sausage. Almost like a mother of sourdough.
Has anyone else had any experience with regrinding an old sausage into your new batch as your bacterial starter? Also does anyone know of the bacteria starter that reacts better to sucrose?
Thanks for any help
Regrinding fermented sausage for the bacteria
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workingpoor
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Chuckwagon
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Hi Workingpoor,
You wrote:
You also wrote:
If you switch to T-SPX and still have too much tangy flavor, then the problem is probably due to one or more of the following reasons:
- Temperature/humidity is higher than normal.
- Spice formulation - make an adjustment that favors the culture.
- Excessive water addition.
- Product delayed prior to entering the fermentation chamber or smokehouse, resulting in higher initial temperature.
- Leaner product giving more moisture and lower salt-in-water.
- Change of meat (from beef to pork) in recipe.
- Smaller diameter product processed at high humidity.
- Initial meat pH lower than normal.
- Wrong combination of carbohydrate. (sugar)
- Too slow drying that allows longer acidification.
Before you switch from glucose to sucrose, why don`t you try T-SPX? I believe it will make the difference you are looking for. The rate of bacteria growth (speed) is determined by the temperature. The amount of acid produced (tangy taste) depends upon the type and the amount of sugar added. Most traditional fermented sausages will exhibit very little pH drop greater than 5.3 simply because they contain very little sugar. In some sausages, their recipes actually call for no sugar at all. However, some fermentation will take place without added sugars because lactic acid bacteria naturally present in the meat will act upon natural glycogen.
Glucose (also called "Dextrose") is sugar refined from corn starch. It is the most simple in make-up of all types of sugar and therefore the most readily used by lactobacilli. It is the ideal sugar for fermented sausages. Sucrose is common table sugar and made from sugar beets in my area or sugar cane in the south. Sucrose is also called "saccharose" and it is also found in fruit, honey, and even DaveZac`s sugar maple tree sap. Sucrose is half glucose and half fructose. It is sometimes used with glucono delta-lactone for sausages with a medium-fermenting rate as sucrose is the second fastest acting sugar (after dextrose).
Lactose is sugar from milk. Its makeup is composed from glucose and galactose. The supermarket variety of non-fat dry milk is over 50% lactose and its water binding qualities are high. Fructose is sugar from fruits and honey. My horse is addicted to this stuff... (in apples). Maltose is malt sugar made during the fermentation process of germinating barley in the brewing industry. It helps to control the sour flavor produced during the procedure. In sausage making, it is a poor choice for fermentation. Galactose is closely related to glucose, but it is not nearly as sweet. Galactose is half lactose (milk sugar). In the human body, glucose is changed into galactose to enable the mammary glands to secrete lactose. Raffinose is the sugar of vegetables and whole grains. Maltodextrin is sugar produced from rice, potatoes, and corn and is used in the drinking soda industry.
Be sure to let us know how you come out with your next batch. Hope this info helps.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
You wrote:
The process you are describing is called "backslopping" and dates back to the early Romans. It is not recommended in modern applications because it is not consistent. If you'd like dependable uniformity with each batch, use the correct culture for your product. Here is a helpful link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4796Has anyone else had any experience with regrinding an old sausage into your new batch as your bacterial starter?
You also wrote:
I would guess offhand, you are using a culture that is too fast (for your tastes) such as LHP, or even a medium culture such as F-RM-52. There is a slow culture available that produces relatively mild acidification is desired. T-SPX is particularly recommended for the production of Southern European type of sausages, low in acidity with an aromatic flavor. The culture is suitable for molded as well as smoked fermented sausages (Semi Dry Cured). Each 25-gram packet of Bactoferm™ T-SPX will treat 440 pounds (200 kilo) of meat.My only complaint is that my sausage is always a little too tangy.
If you switch to T-SPX and still have too much tangy flavor, then the problem is probably due to one or more of the following reasons:
- Temperature/humidity is higher than normal.
- Spice formulation - make an adjustment that favors the culture.
- Excessive water addition.
- Product delayed prior to entering the fermentation chamber or smokehouse, resulting in higher initial temperature.
- Leaner product giving more moisture and lower salt-in-water.
- Change of meat (from beef to pork) in recipe.
- Smaller diameter product processed at high humidity.
- Initial meat pH lower than normal.
- Wrong combination of carbohydrate. (sugar)
- Too slow drying that allows longer acidification.
Before you switch from glucose to sucrose, why don`t you try T-SPX? I believe it will make the difference you are looking for. The rate of bacteria growth (speed) is determined by the temperature. The amount of acid produced (tangy taste) depends upon the type and the amount of sugar added. Most traditional fermented sausages will exhibit very little pH drop greater than 5.3 simply because they contain very little sugar. In some sausages, their recipes actually call for no sugar at all. However, some fermentation will take place without added sugars because lactic acid bacteria naturally present in the meat will act upon natural glycogen.
Glucose (also called "Dextrose") is sugar refined from corn starch. It is the most simple in make-up of all types of sugar and therefore the most readily used by lactobacilli. It is the ideal sugar for fermented sausages. Sucrose is common table sugar and made from sugar beets in my area or sugar cane in the south. Sucrose is also called "saccharose" and it is also found in fruit, honey, and even DaveZac`s sugar maple tree sap. Sucrose is half glucose and half fructose. It is sometimes used with glucono delta-lactone for sausages with a medium-fermenting rate as sucrose is the second fastest acting sugar (after dextrose).
Lactose is sugar from milk. Its makeup is composed from glucose and galactose. The supermarket variety of non-fat dry milk is over 50% lactose and its water binding qualities are high. Fructose is sugar from fruits and honey. My horse is addicted to this stuff... (in apples). Maltose is malt sugar made during the fermentation process of germinating barley in the brewing industry. It helps to control the sour flavor produced during the procedure. In sausage making, it is a poor choice for fermentation. Galactose is closely related to glucose, but it is not nearly as sweet. Galactose is half lactose (milk sugar). In the human body, glucose is changed into galactose to enable the mammary glands to secrete lactose. Raffinose is the sugar of vegetables and whole grains. Maltodextrin is sugar produced from rice, potatoes, and corn and is used in the drinking soda industry.
Be sure to let us know how you come out with your next batch. Hope this info helps.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! 
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Chuckwagon
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- Location: Rocky Mountains
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Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
IdaKraut wrote:
GdL or Glucono-delta-lactone, is actually neutral being obtained from dextrose, but when metabolized, it becomes glucose and a "sequestrant" - a food additive forming polyvalent metal ions - mainly iron, copper, and nickel, whose purpose is to serve as catalysts in fat oxidation. These sequestrants essentially serve as a sort of a "food preservative" and as an acidic curing agent. In its pure form, it is a white, odorless, crystaline powder, but when it is hydrolyzed in water, GdL changes rapidly (expecially with the introduction of heat), into gluconic acid, giving an acidic, tangy taste to food. Total hydrolyzation does not actually occur, the remainder becoming lactone. Actually, GDL is only about a third as sour tasting as is citric acid, but it produces the same amount of metabolic energy as sugar.
GDL, for our purposes, was initially intended to increase the amount of acidity in fermented sausage to provide an extra safety factor. As you know, meat always contains some bacteria and it is just a matter of time until it begins to grow. Hopefully, the beneficial bacteria will quickly crowd-out the pathogentic microorganisms and consume their food supply. When this happens, lactic acid is left behind, giving us that wonderful (or not) tangy flavor. When a sausage is first stuffed, the ONLY barrier protecting it from spoilage bacteria is the salt and nitrite added during mixing. GDL simply adds a jump-start on the acidity protective qualities.
Hmmm.... Similar to T-SPX? In my opinion, no. I say that because the only thing that will replicate the flavor of T-SPX acidification is... T-SPX.
Personally, I don`t use GDL. No need to. In "semi-dry cured" products, once in a while I use a little Fermento™, but for authentic tang in fermented sausage, you just can`t beat Mother Nature`s naturally-produced lactic acid. Hope this helps.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Hi Rudy,Chuckwagon, you mentioned GDL (glucono delta-lactone). I've never used it but would be interested if it produces a tang similar to T-SPX. Could you please elaborate on the use of GDL, including your opinion on its tanginess? Thank you.
GdL or Glucono-delta-lactone, is actually neutral being obtained from dextrose, but when metabolized, it becomes glucose and a "sequestrant" - a food additive forming polyvalent metal ions - mainly iron, copper, and nickel, whose purpose is to serve as catalysts in fat oxidation. These sequestrants essentially serve as a sort of a "food preservative" and as an acidic curing agent. In its pure form, it is a white, odorless, crystaline powder, but when it is hydrolyzed in water, GdL changes rapidly (expecially with the introduction of heat), into gluconic acid, giving an acidic, tangy taste to food. Total hydrolyzation does not actually occur, the remainder becoming lactone. Actually, GDL is only about a third as sour tasting as is citric acid, but it produces the same amount of metabolic energy as sugar.
GDL, for our purposes, was initially intended to increase the amount of acidity in fermented sausage to provide an extra safety factor. As you know, meat always contains some bacteria and it is just a matter of time until it begins to grow. Hopefully, the beneficial bacteria will quickly crowd-out the pathogentic microorganisms and consume their food supply. When this happens, lactic acid is left behind, giving us that wonderful (or not) tangy flavor. When a sausage is first stuffed, the ONLY barrier protecting it from spoilage bacteria is the salt and nitrite added during mixing. GDL simply adds a jump-start on the acidity protective qualities.
Hmmm.... Similar to T-SPX? In my opinion, no. I say that because the only thing that will replicate the flavor of T-SPX acidification is... T-SPX.
Personally, I don`t use GDL. No need to. In "semi-dry cured" products, once in a while I use a little Fermento™, but for authentic tang in fermented sausage, you just can`t beat Mother Nature`s naturally-produced lactic acid. Hope this helps. Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill!
Chuckwagon,
Thank you for your elaborate reply. I did not think it would be a substitute for real lactic acid bacteria starter cultures, but I thought I would ask.
Doing a google search showed numerous sausage makers who use GDL in their products but they also list LAB starter cultures in their list of ingredients. I understand that GDL helps in binding the sausage as well as acidifying the product according to a few studies I read. Your explanation was what I needed. I think I will just keep using T-SPX and fore-go the GDL. I found that encapsulated citric acid tastes artificial and fermento did not do anything to decrease the acidity in my testing or tasting using the recommended amounts.
Thanks again.
Thank you for your elaborate reply. I did not think it would be a substitute for real lactic acid bacteria starter cultures, but I thought I would ask.
Doing a google search showed numerous sausage makers who use GDL in their products but they also list LAB starter cultures in their list of ingredients. I understand that GDL helps in binding the sausage as well as acidifying the product according to a few studies I read. Your explanation was what I needed. I think I will just keep using T-SPX and fore-go the GDL. I found that encapsulated citric acid tastes artificial and fermento did not do anything to decrease the acidity in my testing or tasting using the recommended amounts.
Thanks again.
Rudy
