Question about acidification of dried sausage.

jcflorida
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Question about acidification of dried sausage.

Post by jcflorida » Fri Mar 30, 2018 20:35

This is my first attempt at making dried sausage. I prepared the mince following Len Poli's "Favorite" Salami recipe except using B-LC-007 culture. I fermented at 21°C and 90% humidity for about 28 hours. The pH dropped from about 5.8 to a little less than 5.2. I then reduced the temperature to 13° and humidity to 80%. I (perhaps naively) expected the pH to stabilize. However, at about 40 hours the pH was a little less than 5.1, after a week, dropped to about 4.85 where it appears to have stabilized. This is about the pH expected for complete consumption of the sugars in this recipe (0.27% dextrose and 0.4% corn syrup solids). So, my question is: Is the "final" pH controlled by the total quantity of sugars or temperature profile, or did I screw something else up?

Apologize in advance for this rambling post.

John
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Post by Butterbean » Fri Mar 30, 2018 22:22

Generally speaking its like making wine and the fermentation will follow the amount of available sugar but then the type sugar makes a difference also. A rule of thumb is for every gram of dextrose put in a kg of meat you can expect it to drop 0.3 points so the dextrose alone in that recipe should have dropped it 0.81 points putting you at 4.99 then there is the corn syrup solids which would also add to the drop. So I don't think you screwed up. JMO, so don't take it to the bank.
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Post by Bob K » Fri Mar 30, 2018 22:50

John-
Like Butterbean said you did nothing wrong and your salami will be fine. Mr Polis recipes are designed using LHP which is a fast fermenting culture. When changing from the culture specified in a particular recipe you may also have to make changes in the sugar amounts and fermentation temps. There is more info on using 007 here: http://www.wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=7027 and here: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

That recipe also contains dry milk so you probably added lactose also
jcflorida wrote:So, my question is: Is the "final" pH controlled by the total quantity of sugars or temperature profile,
A combination of both.
Last edited by Bob K on Sun Apr 01, 2018 14:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jens49 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 07:17

Butterbean I have always used Marianskis advice on sugar;
"About 1 g (0.1%) of dextrose per 1 kg of meat lowers pH of meat by 0.1 pH. This means that 10 g of dextrose added to meat with initial pH value of 5.9 will lower pH by one full unit to 4.9. Sugar levels of 0.5% - 0.7% are usually added for reducing pH levels to just under 5.0."
Do you disagree?
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Mar 31, 2018 14:26

jens49 wrote:Butterbean I have always used Marianskis advice on sugar;
"About 1 g (0.1%) of dextrose per 1 kg of meat lowers pH of meat by 0.1 pH. This means that 10 g of dextrose added to meat with initial pH value of 5.9 will lower pH by one full unit to 4.9. Sugar levels of 0.5% - 0.7% are usually added for reducing pH levels to just under 5.0."
Do you disagree?
Good question and no, I don't disagree. You actually made me rethink things and I'm now have a lot of questions myself.

First answer that comes to mind is I'm an idiot and am wrong. Very plausible and I can accept this.

Second answer is this rule of thumb seems to work pretty good but it is for dextrose and both Marianski and Toldra say the same about the addition of 1% sugar yielding a reduction in pH by one point. So when they say "sugar" does this include the more complex sugars and the rule I was citing illustrates the efficiency of the more simple sugar - dextrose? My hunch is it does but then again my first answer comes to mind.

But using the 0.27% dextrose addition in JC's scenario my rule of thumb would go like this:
0.27%/100 = 0.0027 x 1000 = 2.7 grams/kg x .3 = 0.81 estimated pH drop from dextrose

This would yield a final pH of 5.00 from dextrose alone. Then there was the corn syrup solids and the lactose which aren't as easily broken down.

Hopefully someone else can clarify this or correct me but that's how I'd figure it.
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Post by Bob K » Sat Mar 31, 2018 14:51

I think if working with different cultures you can't always apply the same rules. The graphs and charts in Marianskis book are based on cultures that use P. pentosaceus at different strengths ( T-SPX and F-1) and using dextrose only.
If you start combining different types of sugar with a culture like 007 that combines THREE different lacto producing strains...your results just won't be the same. :mrgreen:
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Post by StefanS » Sat Mar 31, 2018 15:17

Butterbean wrote:A rule of thumb is for every gram of dextrose put in a kg of meat you can expect it to drop 0.3 points
where it come from?? never cross that role in Toldra, Marianski or Feiner books.
On that part agree with jens49. 1 g of dextrose equal 0.1 point pH, corn syrup solids - not easy to predict without knowledge of DE number (dextrose equivalent). Additionally - glycogen in lean meat (pork 1.5-3 g of dextrose).
jcflorida wrote: I then reduced the temperature to 13° and humidity to 80%.
LAB stop fermenting sugars at temp. below 12*C - so it takes some time to completely stabilize pH ( drop of temp in core of sausage ( we do not know diameter of your sausage), also Aw plays role too). As stated in topics mentioned by BobK that 007 isn't easy culture to work with. Finally IMO - it is something else - not only sugars, temperature in your case - it can be false readings of pH-meter, it can be fat smearing.
Just IMHO>
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Post by jens49 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 16:27

One of the reasons I asked is because I have had so many problems with BLC 007. Simply can not control the acidity. In my latest batch I used 2 gr/kg dextrose and monitored the drop in pH carefully. 20 dgr C and about 92% RH. The pH dropped from 5,7 to 5,2 in exactly 24 hrs!
My thinking is that Marianskis rule is mainly for very slow cultures as T-SPX. Newer and faster cultures seem to have more aggressive acid creating LABs that do not give the mild acidity as for example T-SPX.
Five years ago I could get 2 different types of starter cultures from my supplier. To day he has 9!
Not sure if that makes life easier...
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Post by Bob K » Sat Mar 31, 2018 17:01

jens49 wrote:. Newer and faster cultures seem to have more aggressive acid creating LABs that do not give the mild acidity as for example T-SPX.
Actually it's the difference between a fast acting culture and a slow or medium acting culture.

BLC 007 is sold by the manufacturer, CHR Hansen as a FAST acting culture. No matter that a merchant website has stated that "This culture makes T-SPX obsolete" It certainly does not. :shock:
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Mar 31, 2018 19:46

StefanS wrote:
Butterbean wrote:A rule of thumb is for every gram of dextrose put in a kg of meat you can expect it to drop 0.3 points
where it come from?? never cross that role in Toldra, Marianski or Feiner books.
On that part agree with jens49. 1 g of dextrose equal 0.1 point pH, corn syrup solids - not easy to predict without knowledge of DE number (dextrose equivalent). Additionally - glycogen in lean meat (pork 1.5-3 g of dextrose).
jcflorida wrote: I then reduced the temperature to 13º and humidity to 80%.


This is something I had in my notes from a few years ago when I was working on some shelf stable snack sticks. This figure comes from Toldra but it is in regard to fast fermented meat.

Here is a link to one of the discussions where this was mentioned.

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6941
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:22

I use 007 all the time. I use .6% dextrose and monitor the PH carefully. When I hit 5.1, I transfer it to the chamber at 54 Degrees. I don't even bother checking the PH after that only because I've never had a recipe come out "acidic" at all. In fact, I was going to increase the dextrose one day just to see what this "Tang" is that everybody's talking about.
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Post by Bob K » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:40

Lou you wouldn't have to add any more Dextrose, just increase the fermenting temp. YOu cold also try .5 dextrose and .3 sugar as that culture will ferment both. The lower Ph will also get rid of the "funky" odor, taste many objects to. Heck you may even enjoy the "cleaner" taste in sausages like pepperoni and sopressata, I do :mrgreen:
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Post by jcflorida » Mon Apr 02, 2018 01:04

Thanks to those who replied . . . After consideration, it's likely that 13° did not stop the acidification, but merely slowed it down, therefore over several days the pH leveled off near the value expected for the quantity of sugar in the mince.

My two cents on general "rules of thumb" for a linear relationship between pH and quantity of sugar. pH is a logarithmic scale, so it will take 10 times as much acid to lower pH from 5 to 4.9 as it takes to lower it from 6 to 5.9. Curves 4, 5 an6 of Figure 7.2 of the Marianskis' book (Figure 7 of the Chr. Hansen Meat Manual) appear to confirm this point. At the high temperature, 0.3% dextrose drops pH by about 0.8, 0.5% results in about 1.0 pH drop, and then doubling dextrose to 1.0% drops pH by only 0.2 more. So, the "rules of thumb" would be 0.26, 0.2 and 0.12 pH drops per 0.1% dextrose depending on which range is chosen. Then there's the effect of quantity of specific bacteria species in the culture, temperature, the acid tolerance of the specific species, and probably others.
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Post by Kijek » Mon Apr 02, 2018 20:35

I just love these question and subject, I've learned so much, I can now understand what everyone is talking about, it keeps my mind up to par.
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Post by redzed » Wed Apr 04, 2018 07:48

Thank you jcflorida! You hit the nail squarely on the head! What is needed in this discussion is to put into perspective that pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, rather than a linear scale. To begin with, let`s review a number of sources, that are considered credible, as to how much sugar we need to add to a meat batter to reach the desired pH.

Let`s start with Stan Marianski , who already was quoted in this thread by jens49: About 1 g (0.1%) of dextrose per 1 kg of meat lowers pH of meat by 0.1 pH. This means that 10 g of dextrose added to meat with initial pH value of 5.9 will lower pH by one full unit to 4.9. Sugar levels of 0.5% - 0.7% are usually added for reducing pH levels to just under 5.0.

Fidel Toldra writes in Dry-Cured Meat Products:
The type of carbohydrate must be carefully chosen since it affects the rate of pH drop. It must be chosen based on the temperature of fermentation, the ability of the strain to ferment it (Table 5.1) and the totaltime of processing. The amount of carbohydrate added will affect the extent of pH drop. Approximately 1% sugar will yield a reduction of about 1 pH unit during fermentation.(p.93)
In general, the amount of sugar may vary between 0.5 and 1 % but may reach 2% in some semi-dry fermented sausages. Glucose and saccharose are metabolized quickly and ensure a rapid acidification. Lactose follows at a slower rate than glucose. Dextrines or starch are metabolized slowly and their use is recommended for long ripening sausages. (p.6)

Ockerman and Basu explain it this way: Simple sugars such as glucose (dextrose, 0.5 to 1%, a minimum of 0.75% is often recommended) which is the fermentation substrate can be readily used by all lactic acid bacteria. The quantity of sugar influences the rate and extent of acidulation, and also contributes favorably to flavour, texture, and yield properties. The amount of dextrose added, up to ~ 0.7%, will directly influence the final product pH and additional sugar will not decrease pH further since bacterial cultures can not grow in excess acid. (p.120)

Gerhard Feiner also uses the 10g equals 1 point pH drop correlation: Generally, 1 g (or 0.1%) of dextrose added per 1 kg of salami lowers the pH by 0.1 pH unit, which is equal to reducing the pH by 1 unit when adding 1%, or 10 g, of dextrose per 1 kg of salami. Therefore, 8-10 g of dextrose reduces the pH in salami from around 5.7 to around 4.6-4.8, which is frequently the
final pH desired. Similar declines in pH value can be achieved by adding 7 g of dextrose or 2-4 g of lactose.
(p.125)

So the common thread in all of the above is 10g of dextrose will lower the pH by one point. But all refer to lowering the pH to 4.6 - 4.8, and not from 5.7 - 5.8 to 5.2 - 5.3. The reason for that is that we don`t need as much sugar to lower the pH from those higher levels. 1 gram of dextrose will not lower the pH by .1 and 2 grams will not lower it by .2. Being a logarithmic measurement, pH is not linear and is not directly proportional to the acid concentration. Let`s take a look at the graph in this link. While not specific to pH measurement, it demonstrates the difference between the logarithmic and linear scales:
https://www.cs.sfu.ca/~tamaras/digitalA ... thmic.html

So now we know that we can add 7-10g of dextrose when we want a to make a Scandinavian style salami or an American summer sausage. But when making a mild flavoured editerranean style sausage 3g usually enough with slow fermentation. And even then it sometimes can be too much as many of us have discovered with B-LC-007. While the amount of sugar will ultimately determine the acidity of the salami, there are other factors to consider. One important one is fat content. Lactic acid will not metabolize fat so salami with a high red meat content will require more sugar and less when there is a high proportion of fat. Furthermore, using the same amount of fermentable sugar, pH will drop to a lower value in a fast fermentation than in a slow fermentation using the same strain. Better control of the fermentation process and better results can be achieved by using a combination of sugars which will slow the fermentation and still lower the pH to the desired level. Gerhard Feiner explains it this way:

The decline in pH value in the product depends largely on the type and amount of sugar introduced into salami in first place. Elevated levels of sugar leads generally to a stronger acidification and therefore lower pH values. To be fermented into lactic acid, sugars such as sucrose, lactose, and maltose must be broken down first into monosaccharide. Glucose, on the other hand, can be fermented directly into lactic acid and is therefore by far the most often applied form of sugar in fermented salami. The production and ratio of d- and l-lactic acid in the salami depends on the species of lactic acid chosen as being the starter culture. Sucrose is the second fastest fermentable sugar. Maltose and lactose require a considerably longer period of
time for the glycosidic bonds in their molecules to be broken until fermentable monosaccharide are produced. In essence, all lactic acid bacteria (LAB) can ferment glucose into lactic acid. Sucrose can be fermented by around 85% of LAB, maltose by around 70% of LAB and lactose by only around 55%. Only around 30% of lactic acid bacteria ferment galactose into lactic acid.
(pp125-126)

Lastly, let's take a look at Marianski`s salami recipes. They all call for 2-4 grams of sugar in traditional Southern European products. Toldra also points out that even naturally present Lactobacillus spp. ferment added sugars, generally between 2 and 4 g/kg of sausage mass, and in case the pH value tends to drop to levels below 5.3-5.2.

I hope this will help everyone to get a better grasp on the fermentation process and encourage more study and experimentation.
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