Natural Fermentation

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jens49
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Natural Fermentation

Post by jens49 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:57

I am trying to get a grip on natural fermentation. No starters or GdL as to me many of my products seem to come out with the same underlying "sourness/tang" using them. Even if the pH only drops to 5,2.
Mr. Marianski writes that "natural" fermentation should take place from 12 up to 16 C (<15,6 C) and 82 to 98 % RH and it will take between 3 and 8 days. He also writes that the process of LAB stops at temperatures less than 12 C.
My thinking is that I already have that environment in my curing chamber. 12 C and 80 % RH. I can easily raise temp. and RH for some days. Will probably not make any big difference on other items in the chamber.
Can I just stuff the meat and put it straight into the curing chamber? How low must the pH drop for safety reasons? How fast must the drop occur?
Of course choice and cold meat, clean environment and so on.
Any advice, especially based on experience, would be much appreciated.
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Butterbean
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Post by Butterbean » Tue Apr 24, 2018 23:30

Have you given any thought to making your own cure mix with salt and salt peter and curing the meat old school and let the nitrate break down? This takes longer but it gives the little bugs time to do more work and some say this leads to a better product.
jens49
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Post by jens49 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 06:15

Butterbean wrote:Have you given any thought to making your own cure mix with salt and salt peter and curing the meat old school and let the nitrate break down? This takes longer but it gives the little bugs time to do more work and some say this leads to a better product.
I have actually. But I can not get hold of salt peter in Denmark. And the suppliers I have found in EU will not send to Denmark. If I could get the salt peter would the above process be OK?
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Bob K
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Post by Bob K » Wed Apr 25, 2018 13:15

To be honest to most folks a Ph of 5.2 in a fermented product doesn't have a tangy taste.

jens49 wrote:How low must the pH drop for safety reasons? How fast must the drop occur?
A ph of 5.3 is one of the safety hurdle goals used to suppress bad bacteria

How fast it should drop to prevent spoilage depends on temperature, US and Canadian safety tables are here: https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... /standards
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Post by Bob K » Wed Apr 25, 2018 16:41

Butterbean wrote:This takes longer but it gives the little bugs time to do more work and some say this leads to a better product.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think nitrite effects any of the good bugs :?:
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Apr 25, 2018 22:53

Bob K wrote:
Butterbean wrote:This takes longer but it gives the little bugs time to do more work and some say this leads to a better product.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think nitrite effects any of the good bugs :?:
Don't think it does but I'm thinking of it on more of a general line like aging beef. Something magical does seem to go on when beef is aged properly. Also, with sausage making, I have found some of the best tasting sausages resulted from my curing the meat first before grinding and adding spices. Maybe its just in my mind but I do believe sausages taste better when the cure and the salt are allowed to work on their own before grinding and the addition of spices. I don't know.

I don't know if you have a copy of Salumi, Charcuterie and Wurst written by Francois Vecchio but I'm pretty sure he touches on the subject of how the use of saltpeter will make a better salami. Though he only touched on this subject in a sentence or two but it struck home because I had heard the very same thing from my mentor before he passed.

I don't know the answer but the idea interests me. Thus far all of the old school stuff I've been told has proven to be correct so I don't know why the use salt peter would be any different. Don't see where its use would cause any harm since we all should have the ability to measure it properly and make our own curing salt - less the nitrite.
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Post by StefanS » Thu Apr 26, 2018 01:39

Butterbean wrote:with sausage making, I have found some of the best tasting sausages resulted from my curing the meat first before grinding and adding spices. Maybe its just in my mind but I do believe sausages taste better when the cure and the salt are allowed to work on their own before grinding and the addition of spices. I don't know.
in Poland it is STANDARD dry curing min. 48 hours before processing meat in kielbasa making process but not with saltpeter, (Europe used ready to use mix salt with nitrite only).
Butterbean wrote:I don't know if you have a copy of Salumi, Charcuterie and Wurst written by Francois Vecchio but I'm pretty sure he touches on the subject of how the use of saltpeter will make a better salami. Though he only touched on this subject in a sentence or two but it struck home because I had heard the very same thing from my mentor before he passed.
it is old school when many sausage or salami makers or whole muscle ripening process makers know mainly salt peter. Of course some of these ideas have been confirmed by actual scientists (example - The influence of nitrite and nitrate on microbial, chemical and sensory parameters of slow dry fermented sausage., Meat Science 73 (2006) 660-673; ).
Actually we know that nitrite not nitrate is responsible for safety hurdles or for color development so nitrate should be broken dawn to nitrite to do some work. For that we need time and salt peter shouldn't be used where we are in rush. Additionally in salami - IMO can be used only with slow starter cultures. (fast acidification will kill Staphylococci/Micrococci bacteria responsible for reduction of nitrate).
Some additional research articles - Impact of reducing nitrate/nitrite levels on the behavior of Salmonella Typhimurium and Listeria monocytogenes in French dry fermented sausagesMeat Science
Volume 137, March 2018, Pages 160-167;Nitrate reductase activity of Staphylococcus carnosus affecting the color formation in cured raw ham Food Research International
Volume 85, July 2016, Pages 113-120:
- color formation, taste, volatile - these things are little better when using saltpeter because nitrate reductase bacteria like Staphylococci are also responsible for enzymatic activity of lipidase and proteinase. BUT - again - using saltpeter - is is knowledge of whole process of bacterial and biochemical basics. I know - a little milligrams not making different - but why I should deliver for my organs additional amount of nitrate ? (if I do not know when I can use saltpeter)
jens49 wrote:Can I just stuff the meat and put it straight into the curing chamber? How low must the pH drop for safety reasons? How fast must the drop occur?
Of course choice and cold meat, clean environment and so on.
Any advice, especially based on experience, would be much appreciated.
Yes you can - nobody won't stop you if you decide to do - but makers of that products have special bacterial environmental where are mostly "good" bacteria - what about your place - ? (have you made any salami before using starter cultures?). It will be race between "good" and bad bacteria in that process..
Temp of 12*C is boarder when LAB stops fermenting. Lag phase of that temperature is verrry long......
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