Question or two about nitrites/nitrates

venitus · Post by **venitus** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 23:21

Hi everybody, I am Marko and I am new to sausage making.
In a close future I intend to make slow fermented sausages. I wanna have enough tehnical knowledge so that I could, without worries, create my own recipes.
So I really hope that somebody would be kind enough to spend a few minutes answering this.
After learning from "Home production of quality meats and sausages" and "The art of making fermented sausages" (great books) there are still a couple of things that I didnt understand quite enough :

1. As I understood, everytime I make slow fermented sausage (2 to 3 months of production time, about 35% dried) I have to use up to 625 ppm nitrites per 1kg of meat mix. I calculate by this formula : C=(M*P)/N*1000000), the amount in grams of Cure 2 that I need to use. But all of the recipes at the end of the book use up to 156 ppm of nitrites per 1 kg of meat mix (per 5kg they use 12g of cure 2). Why not per 5kg of meat mix, as stated in the recipe list, use 50g of cure 2 (that is 625 ppm)?

2. If I use 625 ppm nitrites (10g cure 2) per 1kg of meat mix, I will have in my cure 0,625g of nitrites and 0,4g of nitrates. So with nitrites I reached USDA limit but what about extra 0,4g of nitrates in mass?
I know that that nitrates release nitrites in time and that nitrites are dissipating as the drying continous, but from a safety point of view, do I need to worry about that levels of nitrites+nitrates?
And is there a way to know, after 2-3 months of drying, level of nitrites in the sausage?

3. When using pork back fat in slow fermented sausage, as I understand, it doesnt have mioglobins and there is no reaction with nitric oxide. So, when calculating the right amount of cure 2 that has to be added to the sausage mass, does the sausage mass, that you calculate with, contain all kinds of meat as well as back fat or back fat isnt included in calculation?

Thats it.. Thanks in advance for your time.
Best regards,
Marko

ssorllih · Post by **ssorllih** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 01:55

You mat expect Chuckwagon to reply to you enquiry soon.

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:13

You mat expect Chuckwagon to reply to you enquiry soon.

What? Whaaa... Whooo...Where...? Did someone rattle my chain?

Welcome to the forum Venitus. Rather than me commenting on my interpretation of Stan's book, I'm going to ask Stan (Seminole) to have a look at your questions and answer them as he is the author of "Home Production Of Quality Meats And Sausages". I believe he is in Poland at this time, but I'll try to find him.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Baconologist · Post by **Baconologist** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 16:18

The 625ppm nitrite and 2187ppm nitrate limits apply to intact pieces of meat, not the ground meat used in sausages.
There is no adjustment for fat when doing the calculations.

See the Process Inspector's Calculations Handbook for details and examples.

venitus · Post by **venitus** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:34

Thanks for answers and Chuckwagon thanks for welcome. Glad to be here.

@Baconologist

Baconologist wrote:The 625ppm nitrite and 2187ppm nitrate limits apply to intact pieces of meat, not the ground meat used in sausages.

Thanks for information.
In "Home production of quality meats and sausages", it is said like that - 156 ppm nitrites for comminuted products and 625 ppm of nitrites for "cured dry products that are prepared from a single piece of meat".
The same is written in "The art of making fermented sausages" with the addition (Appendix A) sentence right behind part about cured dry products : "Slow fermented dry sausages that require few months of drying time also also fit into this category."
Guess that got me confused a bit. I probably missunderstood something.

I'm off to read process inspectors calculations handbook now (nice way to start saturday

. Thanks for information about it.

Post by **Seminole** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 20:11

venitus

Those are the maximum allowable amounts. It is up to you how much you will add. For example, if you add 2% (20 g) peklosol to 1 kg of meat you will get 120 ppm of sodium nitrite. Adding 3% (30 g) will give you 180 ppm.
To get 625 ppm in 1 kg of meat using peklosol you will need to add 104 g (10%) salt and that will make your product very salty. You will have to soak it in water for a long time and that is sometimes not an option. To get such high ppm use American cure #1 (or #2). You could use salt plus pure sodium nitrite, but ask the lab to measure it for you as 1 g of pure sodium nitrite should kill you.

American cures contain more sodium nitrite and to get 625 ppm of sodium nitrite in 1 kg of meat you need only 10 g (1-1/2 tsp) of cure # 1. Now, that you have taken care of your ppm, you can add salt. You may take under consideration that cure #1 contains 93.75% salt and 6.25% of sodium nitrite, so actually you are adding 9.375 g of salt and 0.625 of sodium nitrite.

Don't get it all this confuse you. If you add 150 ppm, 100 ppm or 75 ppm to your minced meat, your smoked sausage will turn out just fine. Italians are making dry hams without any cure at all, just with salt alone, but this is a tricky process.

There is a simple calculator http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... calculator which allows you to calculate sodium nitrite ppm for American cures #1 and Polish peklosol, you just punch in the desired ppm and the program calculates the rest.

I wish I were in Poland, but I have just returned from University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia where I got certified as Better Process Control Specialist by the Food and Drug Administration. This 4-day course is about industrial canning, glass jars, metal cans, commercial retorts and all this stuff. In every American canning plant, on every shift, there must be a person that has completed this course and passed the exams.

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 21:06

Thanks Stan, your remarks and info are always much appreciated.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Post by **Butterbean** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 01:29

CW, while you are asking questions I have one of utmost importance about the book. In the book there is a fella sitting in a chair tending the smoker. I assume this is Adam. I was wondering what was in the bottle he was holding and if he is always so relaxed. I try to do the same but I want to be sure my technique is right.

venitus · Post by **venitus** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:40

Thanks Stan for answer and for writing that great books. i have read two of them and they are most helpful.
After all of the info, Im really looking forward making salami of wild boar and deer.

Best regards,
Marko

Baconologist · Post by **Baconologist** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 21:24

Seminole wrote: Those are the maximum allowable amounts. It is up to you how much you will add. For example, if you add 2% (20 g) peklosol to 1 kg of meat you will get 120 ppm of sodium nitrite. Adding 3% (30 g) will give you 180 ppm.
To get 625 ppm in 1 kg of meat using peklosol you will need to add 104 g (10%) salt and that will make your product very salty. You will have to soak it in water for a long time and that is sometimes not an option. To get such high ppm use American cure #1 (or #2). You could use salt plus pure sodium nitrite, but ask the lab to measure it for you as 1 g of pure sodium nitrite should kill you.

American cures contain more sodium nitrite and to get 625 ppm of sodium nitrite in 1 kg of meat you need only 10 g (1-1/2 tsp) of cure # 1. Now, that you have taken care of your ppm, you can add salt. You may take under consideration that cure #1 contains 93.75% salt and 6.25% of sodium nitrite, so actually you are adding 9.375 g of salt and 0.625 of sodium nitrite.

Don't get it all this confuse you. If you add 150 ppm, 100 ppm or 75 ppm to your minced meat, your smoked sausage will turn out just fine. Italians are making dry hams without any cure at all, just with salt alone, but this is a tricky process.

There is a simple calculator http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... calculator which allows you to calculate sodium nitrite ppm for American cures #1 and Polish peklosol, you just punch in the desired ppm and the program calculates the rest.

According to the FSIS, the maximum ingoing levels of sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate for comminuted meat are to be used when making fermented and/or dry-cured sausages. 156ppm sodium nitrite and 1718ppm sodium nitrate.