Problem with starter culture - BL-C 007

jens49
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Problem with starter culture - BL-C 007

Post by jens49 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 15:50

I have problems with the use of B-LC 007. I just get too much acidity in my salamis. Have not really had this problem with T-SPX or FLC.
As I understand it: you cannot use too much starter culture because it will stop acidifying when there is no more sugar to work with. If I drop the temperature the process will not stop but slow down until there is no more sugar.
This is my fourth try with the 007. I have dropped the dosage from 1 gram to 1/2 gram per kilo meat and only make small batches. That´s why I up the dosage from the recommended 0.2 gram/kilo. Ferment temperature around 20 C and RH around 85 to 90 %. Dextrose 0.3 %. No wine etc. that contain sugars. Ferment about 48 hours. It`s a rather fast culture but won´t it stop when there are no nutrients left? I would like to continue using 007 because of the bio cultures, but it just seems to go wrong every time. Any help appreciated.
Last edited by jens49 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 15:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Bob K
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Post by Bob K » Sun Feb 04, 2018 17:12

Are you measuring Ph when fermenting or going by taste when its done?
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Post by Butterbean » Sun Feb 04, 2018 18:25

Maybe cut your dextrose back?
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Post by jens49 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 18:40

This is based on taste. Earlier on I took pH on every salami but now I usually can see/smell and feel if there has been fermentation. I could cut back on dextrose but wonder if anybody has experience with 007 and dextrose.
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Re: Problem with starter culture

Post by reddal » Sun Feb 04, 2018 18:40

jens49 wrote:As I understand it: you cannot use too much starter culture because it will stop acidifying when there is no more sugar to work with.... I have dropped the dosage from 1 gram to 1/2 gram per kilo meat and only make small batches. That´s why I up the dosage from the recommended 0.2 gram/kilo.
I think its true that adding too much culture isn't disastrous - but it probably does mean the culture will be very effective.
jens49 wrote:Ferment temperature around 20 C and RH around 85 to 90 %. Dextrose 0.3 %. No wine etc. that contain sugars.
I use 0.2% Dextrose - but also add Demerara sugar. I think the Dextrose is the easiest for the culture to work with so maybe reduce that a little.
jens49 wrote:Ferment about 48 hours. It`s a rather fast culture but won´t it stop when there are no nutrients left? I would like to continue using 007 because of the bio cultures, but it just seems to go wrong every time. Any help appreciated.
48hrs at 20c does seem quite a long time for 007 - I normally ferment at 19.5c and expect it to take about 36hrs. However it does vary depending on the input pH of the meat, the temp during preparation etc etc. The only way I've found to make a reliable end result is to monitor the pH throughout fermentation and then drop the temperature rapidly when its at the target pH. Sometimes it takes longer than others...

I have found that 007 does very little for a long time - and then the pH drop starts to kick in quickly. You have to be fast to catch it where you want it - so check the pH every hour or two when it starts to move.

I get your point about why does it carry on fermenting and not just use up all the sugar. However I guess there is plenty of sugar enough for it to ferment down to a very low pH and you have to stop it by lowering the temperature.
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Post by StefanS » Sun Feb 04, 2018 19:28

1. You have to think about glycogen in meat - pork, beef contain enough to drop pH by 0.15 to 0.3
horse meat - 0.6-0.8, wild animals like deer - 0.3 to 0.8 (depends on feed, area etc. important is ex- killing method - if killed instantly higher amount of glycogen, if after shoot it ran - lower because glycogen used to energize muscles)
2. Temperatures and humidity during fermentation.
3. More lean mix - more glycogen+ more water -bacteria is fester growing and fermenting
4. BLC 007 contain huge mix of different strains - some of them not that bio-protective at lower fermentation temperatures. (Pediococcus acidilactici)
IMO better is to use T-SPX or lower temp. below 20*C. (18*C).
reddal wrote: to monitor the pH throughout fermentation and then drop the temperature rapidly when its at the target pH.
- dropping temp. inside larger diameter takes some time - so any way LAB will work until inside core temperature drops below 11.9 *C.
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Post by Bob K » Mon Feb 05, 2018 15:43

Well since everyone seems to be attracted to B-LC 007 for its Bio protective properties, they should also realize that the culture was designed for fast fermented type products with a short production time. It also contains a yeast culture that will affect flavor. Read the CH Hansen product info sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vflz67q60oapk ... 7.pdf?dl=0

F-LC may be a better choice for bio protection if fast fermented and also a traditional product, depending on temp and sugar amounts. https://www.dropbox.com/s/0m58dt2hj31pn ... N.pdf?dl=0

It seems that a lot of folks,like almost everyone, have had problems trying to control ph (tang) when using this culture (B-LC 007). It is not very forgiving if you attempt to use it for a traditional product.

I would have to also agree with Stefan that T-SPX is a better choice.
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Post by jens49 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 18:47

Bob K wrote:I would have to also agree with Stefan that T-SPX is a better choice.
That seems to be my conclusion also. Do not want to sit on a ticking bomb and just wait for the right hour to stop fermentation. How much should I cut the dextrose, how low should my temperature be, how many hours lag phase before it starts. T-SPX has always been good for me so seems I will continue with it. Thank you all...




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Last edited by jens49 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 19:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Tue Feb 06, 2018 13:12

I've been using the 007 for the last year and I think it's great. I'm not getting any of the acidity issues you are describing at all. I just made a batch last week again. Meat started at 5.9PH. I use .3% dextrose and I use the exact proportion of 007 stated on the bag ( 50 grams per 225Kg). I mix the 007 in 1/2 cup of luke warm water about 20-30 minutes before I mix. I have an old refrigerator that I used for fermenting with a small $10.00 heater running thru a controller set for 69-70 degrees. Within 24-36 hours, the meat is 5.1PH. That's when I transfer it to 54 degrees. I don't even worry about the humidity during fermentation. It's plenty humid in that box. Are you using any wine? If so, that may be causing it. Wine is sugar :) I am not using any wine.
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Post by StefanS » Tue Feb 06, 2018 13:54

LOUSANTELLO wrote: controller set for 69-70 degrees. Within 24-36 hours, the meat is 5.1PH.
your statement is confirming that it is a very fast starter culture.
LOUSANTELLO wrote:Are you using any wine? If so, that may be causing it. Wine is sugar I am not using any wine.
depends on kind of wine, Also most of wine has very low pH so addition can little lower pH of mince .
Anyway - salami texture, aroma taste - are personal preferences. For making a south European style is better to use T-SPX - IMO.
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Tue Feb 06, 2018 14:02

My first batch of soppressata I made 2 years ago was using T-SPX. I tried the 007 because I didn`t really care for the aroma of the T-SPX batch. I originally called it more of a dirty sock cheesy smell. I opened one yesterday along with a fairly new 007 batch I made 4 weeks ago. There`s no doubt that the 2 year old has more flavor and "cheesy" taste. It`s very good. The newer one is not as flavorful, but I don`t know if that will change in age. I`m curious to see. Either way, I`ve never seen any of it left on a plate.
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Post by Kijek » Tue Feb 06, 2018 20:48

I was rather good in school when it came to science, but for some reason, no matter how much I read up on this PH, acidity and starter cultures.
I'm just not getting it.

I know one day it will click, but for now, I just sit in the bad of the room. :cry:
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Post by Kijek » Wed Feb 07, 2018 22:21

Ok for those of you that know about my mental block with Ph & Acidity and cultures, here is one simple one, that I can remember.

By adding these Bio Cultures to control listeria, does it change the flavor?

I don't really like too many sausages with that store bought salami TANG taste, will these bio cultures create that tang?

That's what I'm getting at, let's call it TANG 101 LOL
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Post by Bob K » Wed Feb 07, 2018 22:34

Kijek-
See above
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Post by Kijek » Wed Feb 07, 2018 22:52

Oh I caught it this time, I was reading this, but starting to get the feeling Blah Blah Blah.
Next time I guess it pays off to slowly read everything, but I still have much to learn on this ph & acidity stuff, but I'm chipping away at it, sorry everyone, for being a pain on this one subject. :oops:
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