English - Need sausage help

[atcNick]

I hope someone can answer my questions. The .com version of this site doesnt seem to have a forum.

 

I've been reading the "Polish Sausage Recipe" book by the guys who run this site. When garlic is mentioned in the recipes, does this mean fresh garlic or garlic powder? If fresh, do you mince it or use a garlic press?

 

In the recipe for Wedzona polska kielbasa, cold smoked version.....after you smoke the sausage it says to hang the sausage at 55 degrees farenhiet to dry it out some more. My question is, how long do you hold it like that? And where do you store sausage at 55? The fridge is too cold.

 

If there is an English version of this forum please reply with a link for it.

 

Thanks.

[Gość vtec]

When garlic is mentioned in the recipes, does this mean fresh garlic or garlic powder? If fresh, do you mince it or use a garlic press?

Usually, we prefer fresh garlic and yes, we use a garlic press.

 

My question is, how long do you hold it like that?

As long as yield is 87% in relation to the original (after smoking) weight of the meat.

 

And where do you store sausage at 55?

Well, you can use a ground cellar or you can adapt refrigerator that maintain a required temperature.

 

Here are some photos of this sausage made by Papla:

 

 

 

Enjoy your meal!

[atcNick]

Thanks Vtec! Wow...that sausage looks great!!! I remember that when I was a kid.

 

I think the refrigerator will be my best option. I have a mini fridge that is not being used so that's perfect. I just bought a meat grinder and I tested it out on some chuck roast yesterday and it works great: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_36989_36989

 

To start out with I'm going to use the cardboard box smoker method to cold smoke. And if it works out I will eventually build a more permanent smoker this year sometime. I only have a few months left to cold smoke as I live in Texas and after about March it gets hot here and stays hot!

 

I had so many more questions running through my mind to ask but I cant think of them right now...haha. I wish there was an English version of this forum. I can speak Polish but my reading and writing isnt very good.

[Siara]

I think the refrigerator will be my best option.

Well, just remember to make air flow in the fridge. Otherwise you may experience some humidity problems when drying.

Cardboard smoker will work, in fact this is the first one I've used.

Finally, well, maybe not an English version, but if you'll insist enough on our admin he can make a subject/topic for English speaking friends :wink:

[atcNick]

Thanks vtec. Do u have any advice on airflow in the fridge? Would opening the fridge door every few hours work? About how long can I expect to dry it after smoking? Ball park figure.

 

When the recipes call for salt does it matter what kind of salt I use?

 

Do you use half oak and half hickory when smoking? If not, what combination of wood do you use?

[Gość vtec]

Thanks vtec.

It was Siara

 

When the recipes call for salt does it matter what kind of salt I use?

I don't have any idea what kind of salt you have in the US. First of all, you should use a non-iodized salt.

I suggest to contact (email or pm) with ChefPaul or ligawa. They live in the US and can help you.

 

Do you use half oak and half hickory when smoking?

Oak and hickory would be perfect. As well as any wood of fruit and citrus trees. Don't use wood of evergreen trees like fir, pine etc.

[BonAir]

When the recipes call for salt does it matter what kind of salt I use?

atcnick,

"wedlinydomowe.pl" webpage contains good, old, polish recipes, and for curing meat they use mixture of salt and nitre:

 

użyte do peklowania:
1. sól warzonka - 0,10 kg
2. saletra - 0,005 kg

Although nowadays we just use "curing salt" (or "prague powder") instead of mentioned mixture, ie. when recipe says: "sól warzonka - 0,10 kg", we just add 0,10 kg of "curing salt". It's simple and easy.

 

But please remember, that polish "curing salt" contains 99,4% salt and only 0,6% sodium nitrite and according to english wikipedia.org, curing salt is a combination that is 93.75% salt and 6.25% sodium nitrite, so curing salt available in USA may contain 10 times more preservative than ours! I do not know if this is true, so as vtec said, it is best to contact ligawa or ChefPaul privately in this case.

 

And finally

Happy New Year

[Siara]

Do u have any advice on airflow in the fridge?

Some no frost devices do have internal fan build in, so if your fridge is no frost, this should be enough. It not, then it will require dome DIY, and I'm afraid you will need to do some serious modifications. Drilling/cutting inlet and outlet hole. Protecting it with kind of net to prevent insects. In one of them you can install computer cooling fan. Will this work, probably yes, you may also need some fan speed control. This however is just an idea not tested by me, so I can not guarantee.

Would opening the fridge door every few hours work?

This will help, but can be not enough, I'm not sure if any of the forum members are using this solution. Normally we use attic, garage or ground cellar. You just need to build cube frame with mosquito net outside, and the dryer is ready.

About how long can I expect to dry it after smoking? Ball park figure.

It really depends from the temperature and humidity, airflow. In my cellar it takes from 2 to 3 days to dry about 10%. You will have to monitor results daily.

[atcNick]

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

Is there a difference between polska kielsbasa wedzona cold smoked versus hot smoked finished product? Taste/texture/quality? The hot smoked version seems much faster and easier to do. But I want it to be authentic.

 

I want to use the cardboard box method as shown in the book 'Meat Smoking and Smokehouse Design'. Is it possible to keep the smoke temperature low enough (for cold smoking) in the box by using a hot plate with a cast iron skillet with wood chips in it directly underneath the sausage? Assume the outside air temperature is about 45 degrees farenheit.

 

Thanks.

[anik]

Hi atcNick

I usingKosher Salt like this:

http://www.diamondcrystalsalt.com/Culinary/Products/Kosher-Salt.aspx

 

or Purified Salt from sausagemaker:

http://www.sausagemaker.com/12099purifiedsalt10lbs.aspx

[atcNick]

Thanks anik. That's what I use for regular cooking too. Do you change the measurements up at all from what the recipes call for? I have heard that when a recipe calls for salt, one type of salt may be, for example, 1 tablespoon, but another type of salt may require 1.5 tablespoon to get the same amount of salt.

[BonAir]

1 tablespoon, but another type of salt may require 1.5 tablespoon to get the same amount of salt.

True.

And remember the fact that the teaspoon is not equal to a teaspoon

That's why it is important to weight the salt and spices.

[golaszm]

Is it possible to keep the smoke temperature low enough (for cold smoking) in the box by using a hot plate with a cast iron skillet with wood chips in it directly underneath the sausage? Assume the outside air temperature is about 45 degrees farenheit.

Thanks.

It depends on the power of your hot plate, though I suspect it might generate too much heat. Do you have a simple soldering iron? I have tried (succesfully) using something like this guy:

[if - for any reason this link is not working, ask youtube for 'soldering iron smoker']

 

Just to be clear:

a) the soldering iron is not supposed to be working constantly for several hours. I had two of them - 60W lasted for about 3hrs and died; 40W is still working, though I've used it only once for about 5hrs

b) it takes a while to heat the wood chips up to the point where smoke appears. Be patient

c) there's significantly less smoke if compared to any 'live fire' smoker setup

d) the temperature raises about 5 deg. C (I guess it's about 9 deg. F) when using a soldering iron.

 

If you wish to use a hot plate, try to separate the skillet from the cardboard box and use some kind of pipe to let the smoke cool down. You might consider replacing the skillet with a kettle.

[Gość ChefPaul]

In the answer to questions from your first statement.

 

... When garlic is mentioned in the recipes, does this mean fresh garlic or garlic powder? If fresh, do you mince it or use a garlic press? ...

It doesn't have a big difference. However remember about the principle, ... "herbs and dried and ground spices have a more intense taste and the smell, - 1 tablespoon of fresh herbs chopped up corresponds to 1 teaspoon of herbs and dried spices and 1 / 2 teaspoon of minces.

Of course, the fresh garlic we are chopping very finely or we are letting in through a garlic press.

 

... In the recipe for Wedzona polska kielbasa, cold smoked version.....after you smoke the sausage it says to hang the sausage at 55 degrees farenhiet to dry it out some more. My question is, how long do you hold it like that? And where do you store sausage at 55? The fridge is too cold. ...

Recipe for Cold Smoked Polish Sausage of our Friend Stanley, you will find here http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/polish-sausage-cold-smoked.htm

I have the climate similar to yours (I live in Florida). I'm successfully making this type of sausage and store in the fridge for a weeks, (best type of refrigerators are "side by side" with the separate chamber of the freezer - then you have the appropriate ventilation and air flow).

About drying ... I am drying in my garage in the temperature about 65 - 75*F and everything is in very goood quality. Avoid only a too great humidity.

 

About salt and curing salt.

... I have heard that when a recipe calls for salt, one type of salt may be, for example, 1 tablespoon, but another type of salt may require 1.5 tablespoon to get the same amount of salt. ...

By a few experience with the "saltness of salt" personally I am using the "Canning & Pickling Salt" from "Morton". Saltness depends from the "Sodium" content in the salt. The mentioned salt which I am using, is a plain salt, not-iodized, without any additions.

For a curing the meat, I,m blending Prague#1 with the salt in following proportion:

... for 100 lbs of meat: 23oz of salt with 4oz of Prague

 

... Is there a difference between polska kielsbasa wedzona cold smoked versus hot smoked finished product? Taste/texture/quality? The hot smoked version seems much faster and easier to do. But I want it to be authentic. ...

For me, it is a big difference, both in the taste as well as the permanence of the sausage (and of other meats) smoked cold.

Climatic conditions where I live, lets me use this method (cold smoking) only for a few weeks in the year.

 

... True.

And remember the fact that the teaspoon is not equal to a teaspoon

That's why it is important to weight the salt and spices. ...

False

In culinary recipies (what I have written previously on this forum) terms such as: a cup, tablespoon, teaspoon, are not determined with any interpretation... measures of volume are standardized and have the patterns like on the picture below.

http://www.chefpaul.net/images/miary%20kulinarne.jpg

 

In conclusion,... people have different tastes and preferences. We can treat recipies as certain guidelines, ... fitting them into our own and our guests for use.

And finally ... kitchen is not a pharmacy

 

Regards

[atcNick]

If you wish to use a hot plate, try to separate the skillet from the cardboard box and use some kind of pipe to let the smoke cool down. You might consider replacing the skillet with a kettle.

I think this is what I'll do. I have the perfect big cardboard box to hang sausage in and I will house the hot plate, iron skillet, wood chips in a separate smaller box and use aluminum dryer duct about 5 or 6 feet long to funnel the smoke into the meat. I know galvenized metal is not safe around food. Im assuming aluminum is.

 

About drying ... I am drying in my garage in the temperature about 65 - 75*F and everything is in very goood quality. Avoid only a too great humidity.

That's interesting. So you have no problems drying with temperatures up to 75? I bet it dries a lot fast that way. Do you cover the sausage while it's hanging in the garage with anything to prevent dirt and bugs? Im sure this happens in FL too, but here in east TX the temperature varies so much throughout the day. For example, this morning it was 27F, and now, 330pm it's 55.

 

If 75F is a safe temperature to dry then I can probably hang the meat in a spare room in the house, correct? And keep a fan in the room to circulate air. We keep the house between 68-72F.

[golaszm]

Ehh...

Moving back to the point:

 

I know galvenized metal is not safe around food. Im assuming aluminum is.

I have been warned that aluminium is NOT safe. Honestly - I have no idea what exactly could happen when an aluminium flex duct is used, though one of the forum members has warned me not to use it. I realise that beer cans, scout billys and so on are made (mainly) using aluminium. Still - it is not pure aluminium, right?

 

Here is my smoker. The smoke goes through a flex duct about 10 feet long. Once again: I have been warned that it may be not safe.

The duct is not heat resistant - we (my dad and I) have managed to burn a hole in it, right after the stove.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8707/p1040586.jpg

 

And here is my very first cardboard box/soldering iron smoker

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3734/p1040560.jpg http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4/p1040562p.jpg http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/p1040562p.jpg/1/w640.png

[Siara]

atcNick, for protecting against bugs when drying, you can use something like this:

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/roboczy/nasze/jaro/suszarka/suszarka6.jpg

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/roboczy/nasze/jacol/wedzarnia/i.jpg

more photos here:

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/articles.php?id=1605

or

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/articles.php?id=1557&page=1

[atcNick]

Siara, Wow...that's a good idea. I love the pictures of the smokehouse! It looks very nice!

 

golaszm, thanks for the picture and information. How does your smoker work? Do you have any problems with it? I want to do something similar to this to start.

 

I will do some research about the aluminum duct and let you know what I find.

 

Thanks again.

 

[ Dodano: Nie Sty 03, 2010 14:41 ]

Can someone confirm that it is in fact safe to dry the sausage (after cold smoking) at room temperature of about 70* F like ChefPaul suggests?

 

The recipe on this site and in the Polish Sausage recipes book suggests 50*-54*F.

 

If this is safe, my (current) idea is to put the sausage in a spare room I have in the house and leave the window open to create some air circulation, it may also lower the temperature in the room compared to the rest of the house. (lower than 70)

 

Input is appreciated. Dzienkuje bardzo! :grin:

[BonAir]

Koledze od początku tego wątku chodzi o przepis na kiełbasę polską (wędzona surowa), a w szczególności o temperaturę podsuszania.

Przepis podaje by suszyć ją w 10-12°C - pytanie jest czy można ją podsuszać w temperaturze pokojowej około 20°C, jak mu radził ChefPaul ?

[Maxell]

Absolutnie.

Temperatura i wilgotność obsuszania musi zostać zachowana. Wogóle, o ile pamietam, podczas produkcji tej kiełbasy, aby uzyskać wymagany efekt końcowy, temperatura obróbki powinna być jak najniższa.

 

[ Dodano: Nie Sty 03, 2010 16:58 ]

Nieprecyzyjnie napisałem. :wink: Jasne, że mozna, tylko w efekcie otrzymany wyrób nie będzie typową kiełbasą polska wędzoną.

Nie chcę sie rozwodzić, gdyż znowu znajdą się "specjaliści" od poprawiania, ale tam właśnie chodzi o dojrzewanie połączone z suszeniem w takiej akurat temperaturze, by nie dopuścić do rozwoju pewnych szczepów bakterii, a z kolei pozwolić na rozwój innych.

[wojstank]

atcNick

Today Aluminium is considered as metal which should be avoided during food preparation.

Reason is that chemical activity of aluminium is linked with temperature.

In cold condition (75F) aluminium can be safely used for food storing (beer cans) but in 212F aluminium is starting to migrate even to water.

This is reason why in Poland during 1980's was made decision to start to remove aluminium equipment from food industry (and even stop manufacturing aluminium pots).

 

Additionally, today, aluminium is suspected as metal responsible for Alzheimer's disease, but it is not yet proven, I suppose.

 

In real even my mother used aluminium pots more then 20 year's and all we are still alive. So I would say -- for usage in temperature up to 212F aluminium is just not recommended.

 

Situation is much worse with high temperature (like hot smoke with fire). Aluminium is oxidating very quick and oxides are mixing with smoke. This is reason for "burning holes" described by golaszm. For me this is quite dangerous -- there is high risk that a lot of aluminium oxides will go with smoke to your meat.

For such purpose should be used stainless steel or at least carbon steel without zinc coating. As minimum for first 3 to 6 feet to ensure that smoke is cold enough.

 

Personally I am planning to build smoker for cold smoking and I am planning to build two steps system: in first step smoke will be cooled in steel barrel to temperature below 212F and then aluminium flex pipe will be used to connect barrel to smoker and cool smoke to 70F.

[golaszm]

golaszm, thanks for the picture and information. How does your smoker work? Do you have any problems with it? I want to do something similar to this to start.

 

Meaning the stove, flex pipe and wooden box? Works fine for me - easy to set up, easy to hide - only the stove stays outside all the time. Eventually it will be consumed by rust, but then we'll build another one (using bricks).

The flex duct is the main problem - as mentioned, there's a hole burned already plus it might be unhealthy.

Smoking in winter can cause some problems with reaching higher temperatures (for hot smoking), though it's enough for warm smoking. During summer in turn cold smoking is almost impossible.

Stove can be fuelled with a couple of quite big chunks of wood at a time (recently: cherry), so you do not have to throw in another chunk too often.

 

Initially I have been using an electric grill placed at the bottom of this wooden crate, throwing oak & hicory chips directly on it. I had to cover them with an alluminium foil plate and still they tended to burn with live flame.

That's how it was back then:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5843/p1040567.th.jpghttp://img136.imageshack.us/img136/407/p1040577.th.jpg

 

 

As for the cardboard box and soldering iron - it was just for fun You could smoke cheese in it, sausages, maybe a fish - but I would strongly recommend something 'more serious' Still - it works and the total cost is just a few dollars...

[atcNick]

Something I just read about today! Trichina spiralis in pork!! According to the book you should deep freeze pork before making cold smoked sausage to kill the worm. I wonder if my garage upright freezer gets cold enough? Another hurdle to kielbasa bliss!

[Siara]

If you buy you meat from the shop, it is checked by the vet, so do not panic :wink:

You do this for certainty with the wild animals meet mainly. You deep freeze in -21 ° C for 3 weeks.

Sausage made of the meat which was not frozen is much better and easier to do.

Why you don't choose hot smoked sausage for the first try? Easier, faster and taste similar.

[atcNick]

If you buy you meat from the shop, it is checked by the vet, so do not panic :wink:

You do this for certainty with the wild animals meet mainly. You deep freeze in -21 ° C for 3 weeks.

Sausage made of the meat which was not frozen is much better and easier to do.

Why you don't choose hot smoked sausage for the first try? Easier, faster and taste similar.

Good morning Siara (or afternoon if you're in Poland).

 

Thanks for that information. I think I will definetly try the hot smoked version first. Another question I have: I have an electric meat grinder with a sausage attachment on it. Is it too difficult to use this setup for stuffing? Should I buy a vertical stuffer?