listeria in salami

andrejwout
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listeria in salami

Post by andrejwout » Thu Sep 05, 2013 16:31

Hi All, havent been around for a good while.

An important question for you (chuckwagon hello)....

Listeria.

Is the curing process supposed(cure salts, drying, high pH, low aW, lactic acid etc) to 'eradicate/kill' any listeria present in raw meat or only to 'inhibit' any potential growth/ 'further' growth of 'x' number of listeria present in raw meat?

Im led to believe that all raw meat has some listeria and its presence in finished product is fine, if under a certain level, infact normal. Im just wondering whether one can kill it and potentially achieve '0' listeria or if one can only stop further colonisation and growth.

Some help would be most appreciated....its a serious thing really.

Cheers

Andrej
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Chuckwagon
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Sep 06, 2013 08:12

Hey, Hey, Andre J.
Good to hear from you pal. In October 2002, a major poultry producer in Franconia, Pennsylvania, recalled more than twenty-seven and a half million pounds of turkey and chicken "ready to eat" products they had already placed on the market. Following an outbreak of listeriosis, several other meat companies voluntarily shut down operations until the source could be identified. Unfortunately, listeria infection (listeriosis) in several northeastern states had taken its toll, initiating several deaths, sicknesses, miscarriages, and stillbirths.

I don`t know the stats in the United Kingdom, but each year in the United States alone, an estimated 2,500 persons become seriously ill with listeriosis. Another 500 die, causing listeriosis to be the leading cause of death from food borne bacterial pathogens! Further, listeria infection can occasionally lead to severe blood poisoning (septicaemia) or meningitis. Listeriosis infection is caused by eating food contaminated with the bacterium Listeria monocytogenes and twenty to thirty percent of infections result in death! Pregnant women are twenty times more likely to contract listeriosis than other healthy adults and account for a third of all reported cases. The elderly, and persons with weakened immune systems due to cancer, diabetes, kidney disease, and other diseases, are especially at risk.

The rod-shaped Listeria monocytogenes bacteria do not produce spores and are found in soil and water. Most often, the bacteria get into food using manure as a fertilizer from animals having the infection yet displaying no ill symptoms. The bacterium is destroyed by heat while cooking or preparing food. Uncooked meats and vegetables and unpasteurized (raw) milk or foods made from unpasteurized milk may contain the listeria monocytogenes bacteria. Foods to be concerned about include soft cheeses and cold cuts at the deli counter, and many ready-to-eat foods such as hot dogs and raw vegetables. These items must be thoroughly cooked until they are steaming hot! Also to be avoided are foods which have been pre-cooked and then chilled for some time before consumption. Check the labels on Feta, Brie, and Camembert, any blue-veined cheeses, and Mexican cheeses such as Queso Blanco, Queso Fresco, and Panela. Unless labels clearly state they are made from pasteurized milk, avoid them. It is always a good idea to eat smoked seafood only in cooked dishes such as casseroles.

To answer your question specifically, whenever making fresh sausage from any raw meat, protection from listeria monocytogenes is dependent upon cooking the meat until the recommended internal meat temperature of at least 152°F. (66.6°C.) is reached. OR... In non-cooked fermented sausages, (your salami recipe), the microorganism must be destroyed using a combination of salt, a drop to less than 4.4 pH, and a minimum drop in Aw water activity to 0.92.It is interesting to note that Chr. Hansen`s Bactoferm™ F-LC meat culture (made in Denmark and distributed in Germany) not only contains the bioprotective properties of Pediococcus acidilactici, Lactobacillus curvatus and Staphylococcus xylosus for production of fermented sausages (with short or traditional production times), but also the bacteriocin production of both Lactobacillus curvatus and Pediococcus acidilactici, contributing to suppressing growth of Listeria monocytogenes.

Listeria, although relatively rare, remains a potentially life-threatening disease. Healthy adults are likely to experience only mild infection, causing flu-like symptoms or gastroenteritis. However, listeria infection can occasionally lead to severe blood poisoning (septicaemia) or meningitis.

Listeria monocytogenes is an unusual bacterium because it can grow at low temperatures, including refrigeration temperatures of below 5°C. Again, it is killed by cooking food thoroughly and by pasteurization, or in non-cooked "fermented" sausages by using biocultures, salt, correct ph and correct Aw.

In your neck of the woods, Public Health England (PHE) is involved with detecting cases of listeria infection, as well as monitoring any outbreaks. Our USDA (MID) FSIS provides advice on controlling outbreaks and, where possible, track the source of any food that has caused illness. PHE (Public Health England) is also involved with testing foods for the presence of Listeria monocytogenes.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by redzed » Fri Sep 06, 2013 16:33

Great detailed answer CW. Always appreciate the the time you take to respond to to these types of questions. The one thing that got me concerned here is that you state we need a drop of pH to 4.4. That is hard to achieve.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Sep 06, 2013 16:46

Indeed it is hard to achieve 4.4. Actually, salami is safe at about 5.0 but in truth, there are bacteria out there that are still active at 4.4. Why, just the other day I was gazing at a few beneath the microscope when all the "tough ones" turned around, mooned me, and made obscene gestures with their middle fingers! :shock: Now that's tough bacteria!
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by northwall » Fri Sep 20, 2013 22:40

Chuckwagon wrote:
To answer your question specifically, whenever making fresh sausage from any raw meat, protection from listeria monocytogenes is dependent upon cooking the meat until the recommended internal meat temperature of at least 152°F. (66.6°C.) is reached. OR... In non-cooked fermented sausages, (your salami recipe), the microorganism must be destroyed using a combination of salt, a drop to less than 4.4 pH, and a minimum drop in Aw water activity to 0.92.
Chuckwagon
Hi Chuck. Sorry for long delay. I couldnt access my account so started a new one today(this is andrej)

Thanks for the great reply. Its interesting because i was hoping that there may be a tolerable level of listeria allowed and normal....despite it being killed by the curing process. Hence, no worries.

However, im still happy enough because the listeria was at the lowest detectable level and the health people only red flagged because it was present, not because it was a major problem. Also, i warned them that the sample i gave was not fully mature. It was a week younger than it should have been. I would say that at the point of testing the process hadnt finished. in other words the curing was still killing the listeria and hadnt fully achieved that yet. I tested the meat a week after that and the pH was 4.4 or lower, wheres at test point it was 4.9....i cant remember exactly now. Its very interesting stuff, but for me its important i take a lt of care as im now selling products at markets.

I have had a huge amount of success with coppa, lomo, pastrami, s beef, semi cured and long cured chorizo. I have also done saucisson sec, soppressata and funghi salamis. Salamis are newer to me and so im being extra careful, esp as they are prone to problems more than any other group of charcuterie, for obvious reasons. Whole muscle curing is pretty easy and brining a synch. Im trying to fully conquer the former.

I use marianski for virtually all technical guidance. I sometimes use ruhlman salumi for ideas...but im generally not as much into the seasoning and recipes, so i use marianksi where i can. Sadly i have to use ruhlamn for humidity and time scales. He goes with the more general and less scientific cave salumi method, the old way. This, whilst it isnt as good, is much more practical than the scientific perfection based method of our favourite poles. With a small business cant be so specific whilst bringing a good range of meats to market. So i have to go with one size fits all method of Rulhman. The results are good, but i prefer the higher humid, longer curing of marianksi for my table! I wont compromise on coppa though....thats sacred. But on salamis and like i go high heat/humid for 2 days and then 3 weeks ish to completion. This, ofcourse, means a slightly wetter, not as culutred product...but with limited curing chamber si cant do more right now. Its personal wish versus business practicality.

Ive been operating a small while now and the reception is very good. Im pretty famous in the north east of england for my coppa...well not famous, but getting very renowned. My semi cured cooking chorizo can be 'rushed through' in 12-14 days if i have to and is very very good. Again, i prefer a longer cure with prague 2 but in this case cure 1 and a quick production preserves the product really well and is perfect for cooking. Cooking chorizo is what the folk here want right now and they dont seem to understand the fully cured ready to eat version.

This stuff keeps me very very busy. If it isnt the actual curing that does that, its building bigger and better chambers and all the technical problems involved. I vbuilt a btter 2nd chamber this year which works very very well. I regulate humid with sensors connected to a dehumidifier and a humidifier....temp with cooling and heating elements and air flow timed fans. Its not perfect yet but its pretty good. In this area i/we have terrible problems with high humidity...esp in spring/summer. It was so bad this year that it tripped out my sensors in the chamber!! I was like donald duck with fans and rosary beads ...looking at tonnes of coppa and wishing/hoping...very scary. I got through it though, just!

Again, thank you for the advice....its a real help.


Ilol be looking at buying an aW meter soon. I have the pH version , at great expense, but need both. Im learning every day!1

cheers

Andrej
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Post by redzed » Fri Sep 20, 2013 22:56

northwall wrote: I have also done saucisson sec, soppressata and funghi salamis.
:shock: FUNGHI SALAMIS!!?? :shock:

Tell us more! And recipes please, please! :lol:
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Post by northwall » Fri Sep 20, 2013 23:29

Im retiring now...but a good basic italian salami recipe plus some porcini powder n tarragon.....wonderful. if u want details ill post. Its a great thing!
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Post by redzed » Sat Sep 21, 2013 02:25

northwall wrote:Im retiring now...but a good basic italian salami recipe plus some porcini powder n tarragon.....wonderful. if u want details ill post. Its a great thing!
Thanks Andrej. I am actually looking for some basis for a mushroom flavoured salami. So your post is quite timely for me. I have an unlimited amount of chanterelle powder on hand. It's different in flavour than Boletus, but has a wonderful peppery flavour, and I have a feeling that it will complement sausage quite well. Tarragon is very strong and dominant herb, so I would be interested in the proportions you use. If you post a few details I would be forever grateful!

Can't google mushroom/funghi salami/sausage because I get is pizza recipes. :lol:
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 06:05

Hey, hey, Andre J!
Good to hear from you pal! I was about to send El QuackO on the wing, to England to check on you.
The most troublesome problem we've had with Listeriosis in America is because of pregnant women eating raw (par-cooked) frankfurters right out of the package. After the practice began claiming many lives, the government finally toughened up the rules regarding the bacterium.

I remember discussing your coppa last year with you. I have no doubt you are making the best in England! Congratulations sir. In fact, all your meat products sound like they are first class. Andre J, I simply can`t believe how far you`ve come. I am thrilled! Good on ya` mate! You`ll have the reputation as the finest, I am sure.

I agree with you about Stan Marianski. His methods are the only way to go. The man is phenomenal. I consider him the prime charcuterie authority worldwide today.

Andre J, it sounds like you`d better build another curing chamber. And save those sheckles for the Aw and pH meters. Man-o-man, they don`t exactly give those things away! Hey, I`ve noticed that you are getting the "fine edge" on the craft regarding time and the regulation of nitrate/nitrite. I am very glad you are so very busy. You deserve to be... busy!

Best of luck to you Andre J. You are a really neat guy! Stay well and happy and keep smilin`!

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by northwall » Sat Sep 21, 2013 22:36

Yes, i think we have a problem in europe too, but we are far more equipped physically to deal with it, though that is changing. You have had a longer more concerted effort to make all things sterile in n america and 'dirt' is illegal. Because of very fervent beliefs in age old techniques of eating and producing, we are more used to 'real' food and the bacteria and pathogens that come with it. The irony is, and this includes todays EU, is that the companies and ministers that have made our lives so clean and perfect , have allowed, through bribes and corruption, for the free for all malpractices that take place. IE Ammonia to kill shit on beef in US because rearing is so poor and nasty that the animals are inherently disgusting at slaughter and impossible to make safe for consumption without serious degrees of e-coli etc etc....the fact that people get even more ill because they have no good reactive defence measures in their bodies any more..i could go on. Luckily its not as bad here but its getting there. In the uk we are more like n america than the rest of mainland eurpe and it isnt a good thing all round.

The coppa is awesome. Im a small producer but have had coppa from some of the more established pros out there. Their products are very good but lack heart and that rustique quality, which i look for as a consumer. They also go 'wetter' and it lacks the leather like thing i love so much. I do it the real way. Probably not good on balance sheet but i believe in it.

I have a curious story with all this stuff. Im polish by blood, half and born here. As you know all poles have a drive to cure dead animals and are very good at it. Years ago i saw a tv thing about these serbs curing sausage in urban luton/london. I was very impressed and said to my father i should do that some time. Nothing happened though. Then i lived in poland for years and witnessed their attitude towards curing. I came back and worked a few years before being made redundant and jobless etc. So, roughly around joining the forum i started doin it as a business. A crap one, but started. I had no time to hobby and learn first, but threw myself 100% in to it, whilst saving money on social benefit. It took me 1.5 years to get a loan for biz...and albeit a small one, it got me going properly. The biggest problem is that im learning on the job and am essentially a beginner, albeit not. There are gaps im always trying to fill, knowledge wise, and it takes me a lot of time to learn because im busy trying to make a buck...etc etc. I am a trained chef, so that has helped, however it isnt really the same thing at all.......so its been tricky. Its all a bit crazy. I feel now that ive moved from apprentice to junior curer...thats a step forward. I can achieve masterful stuff, but i also fail quite often through trial and gaps in experience and knowledge. Its a curious thing going down.

So how long have you been curing stuff? You are from somewhere around colorado, im guessing. I presume you are retired and this is a hobby thing. Or are you, have been, in the meat business. You are certainly very informed!

I agree with you regarding the poles. Then again, go to poland and see what they do. because of the cold war their food culture is sneered at. Its crazy The poles are rightup there with france , italy and spain. The only thing is they do focus on smoked cure products and that typecasts them. The hungarians are the best salami makers in the world, by a long stretch. The poles masters of sausage and loins etc. I fully trust two guys who evidently worked at high levels within the polish curing sector. Its no surprise to me that they know their shit. I would like to sell it here, but apart from to poles, it wont sell. brits see it as eastern european and thus, less valuable......its a shame. Crazy.They dont know what they are missing. The lithuanians make immense forest sausage products too...truly awesome. Infact all slavs have a real talent for it...the only thing is you have to trust the source for the meat and Poland is one of the few that is kosher and safe. The bulgars and ukranians have skills but very nasty people have factories with god knows what going through them!!

Anyway, i have to tackle my humidity issue before go to bed. My sensor collapsed today and i have 15 chorizos that are sweating too much. It isnt pretty and makes me very edgy. It will be fine, but i worry nonetheless.

Cheers

Andrej
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Post by northwall » Sat Sep 21, 2013 22:44

funghi salami

I havent tried with said chenterelles but i know them well. It wont have the same punch as with cettas, but will be very nice. Use coffee grinder and fine grind. Yes, tarrogaon is strong, so i use dried and only about a tablespoon per batch. See below.

56 g sea salt
1 tsp/7g cure 2
1 tablespoon/8 grams b pepper
1 tablespoon /6 grams sage(optional)
1 tablespoon /6 grams tarragon/sage is good too
15g ground porcini
12g minced garlic
170 g parmesan (optional)--not necessary in my view.
175 white wine, chilled
1g spx culture
2 tablespoons distilled water
Mold 600/starter culture
45 beef middles or fibrous casings

Grind cold through medium 6mm plate. Mix all ingredients
Dissolve spx in water, add and mix.
Chill meat again
Stuff sausages

Incubate at 27c, 80% fr 12 hrs
Cure at 15c 65% for 3 weeks or 30% weight loss

I might go to 20/25 chanterelles, simply because they dont have the same punch. Dried mushies are perfect by the way.

I have made and sold this twice, to rave reviews. Its unique but obvious. really good. Go for it!!
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 23:44

Wow, what a recipe that one is! Thanks for sharing. I've got to make sure my ol' buddy Jason Story sees that one. That is really an interesting cluster of ingredients.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by northwall » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:38

Yes its a great concept. Originally it uses sage. I prefer tarragon....as,if used lightly ,it marries better to funghi. I presume u have good atmospheric controls in place...otherwise results sre more variable.
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Post by redzed » Sun Sep 22, 2013 19:28

Andrzej, dziękuje serdecznie za przepis.

I will be working on my Salami Con Finferli recipe today and use your Porcini Salami as a starting point. Will incorporate both sage and tarragon (from my garden) and use a slightly larger amount of chanterelle powder. Will post details and pics in a couple of days.

Yesterday we gathered another whack of chanterelles and stayed up until midnight processing them. Pouring rain here today, so I am very happy (unlike my golfing friends). Should be another good week in the forest!

Chris
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Post by northwall » Sun Sep 22, 2013 21:38

Krzysztof, prosze bardzo....

So you must be a pole, im guessing at least. Im polish on my mothers side. It's a country i love and i was very very sad to leave last time. I'll retire there one day.....brilliant place.

So, you have a glut of orange lovelies. I adore them pickled, but also fried lightly in milk/olive oil....delicious.

Fresh sage /tarragon should work but make sure they are well. I use dried herbs, mainly to reduce health risks and keep the silly health (censored~CW) off my back. The element of surprise with untested/ unregulated products is a problem for me. If i got a bit of dog piss on a piece of sage and it went inot a product which happened to be tested etc...god help me. When producing for the andrzej larder, i use everything from the garden, obviously. Its one of the tragedies of doing it as a business, some of the natural and instinctive elements disappear. I lie in the north east of england and in this area there are sod all good wild mushrooms. Its a very sad situation. I used to live in highland scotland and there were loads there...was great. I miss the little critters.

I dont know if you like pheasant or can get it easily but if you can, i have a brilliant recipe. Here only me and my dad eat it but a bird each is quite pricey. So, take one bird and remove breasts. De flesh the legs/thighs, removing the nasty shards. Take said leg meat and blend with cream, herbs of choice and any good wild mushroom. Carefully cut a pocket in each breast and stuff with mixture until double-ish size. Set the oven to 200C/gas 6. Heat oil and butter in pan until hot. Season the pheasant breast and lay presentation side down in the pan. Cook for three minutes and then transfer to the oven and cook for six minutes. Its a joy, very cost effective too.

Another great one at this time of year is wood pigeon, or squab as you might call it. Quick seared with a lightly warmed blackberries, cooked but still with a bit on them in butter....wonderous. I love cooking. Im actually a chef, though i dont practice it professionally in kitchens any more, only at home and the bits that cross over into curing. I live and breath food really.

i hope your salami works well.By the way, you might want to press/weigh it down for a day or so. Youll get oblong salami but it will compress/bind better. I dont know how much salami you have made, but if you are new to it...make sure you try to keep the meat as cold as possible at all times during the pre fermentation stage. You dont want smearage.

Im guessing you arent new to it, but i just wanted to mention that. So dissapointing when you get 'paste' Salamis can be tricky little guys and require a touch of skill. Saucisson sec is much easier as its a shorter time to cure. The fatter salamis allow for all sorts of things to go bloody wrong. I had to thrown out a shed load of italian soppressata because it didnt 'take' and was grey//////god i was pissed.

Anyway, keep me updated

cheers

Andrzej
Last edited by northwall on Mon Sep 23, 2013 01:48, edited 2 times in total.
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