Do you mix your cure with the cubed meat. .

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Do you mix your cure with the cubed meat. .

Post by markjass » Tue Feb 05, 2013 01:07

I am going to make some Mortadella di Bologna. I am going to smoke it with my brined ham tomorrow and then poach it. I have read a number of articles on making it and will use the recipe in the book (may add whole coriander seeds). I notice that some authors suggest cubing the meat and backfat then mixing in the cure (some add all the ingredients). They then place it in the fridge overnight. As the sausage I am making is emulsified I cannot see the point of doing this. However I can maybe see the point of doing this if you are using larger cubes of meat within a sausage. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Does overnighting the mixed meat and cure affect the flavour or just the look of the final cut product? Is an overnight mix mean that the the cubed meat is propably cured? Do the backfat cubes absorb cure?

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Re: Do you mix your cure with the cubed meat. .

Post by atcNick » Tue Feb 05, 2013 01:46

markjass wrote:I am going to make some Mortadella di Bologna. I am going to smoke it with my brined ham tomorrow and then poach it. I have read a number of articles on making it and will use the recipe in the book (may add whole coriander seeds). I notice that some authors suggest cubing the meat and backfat then mixing in the cure (some add all the ingredients). They then place it in the fridge overnight. As the sausage I am making is emulsified I cannot see the point of doing this. However I can maybe see the point of doing this if you are using larger cubes of meat within a sausage. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Does overnighting the mixed meat and cure affect the flavour or just the look of the final cut product? Is an overnight mix mean that the the cubed meat is propably cured? Do the backfat cubes absorb cure?

Mark
As far as I know fat doesnt get cured. The thicker the meat the longer time to cure through. if you mix the cure with ground meat then it will cure much faster. Why cure cubed meat when its going to get ground?....I dont know. I've wondered why recipes show that.
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Post by markjass » Tue Feb 05, 2013 02:14

yes, why cure then mince trhe meat? One of the reasons why I want to make mortadella is that I want to make pasta stuffed with mortadella and kumera (sweet potato). I do not have a recipe for this but I should be able to work it out with a bit of trial and error. In the mean time does anyone have a recipe for this or an idea of a sauce. I think it usually served in a butter sauce or in a broth.
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Feb 05, 2013 02:17

I believe that it is easier to get a good distribution of the salt/cure/spice blend on the cubed meat. Grinding will subsequently add a mixing stage to the process. I presently have a small batch of very lean pork that was salted and cured and smoked and tomorrow will be ground with the spice and other flavors. There are many methods and almost none of them are completely wrong. Smoking without cure is completely wrong.
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Post by markjass » Tue Feb 05, 2013 03:37

There are many methods and almost none of them are completely wrong. Smoking without cure is completely wrong

Yes I totally agree. In my idolatry time I often ask why? As for smoking without using cure. Why add one more potentially fatal danger or complication to life when you do not need to. [
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Feb 05, 2013 04:29

Hi Mark,
Mortadella is made with an emulsion of pork fat and pork mixed into a blend very much like bologna. While it is being emulsified the mixture of fat and pork must not be over processed or the texture will be tough. On the other hand, it must be emulsified enough to activate the actin and actomyosin proteins. When the mixture has been blended, another batch of fat is added to the mixture and folded in by hand until it is distributed uniformly. This second batch of fat is a "backfat" of higher grade and it is cut into cubes while nearly frozen. When the cubes have been distributed throughout the meat, it is then stuffed into casings.
Our buddy NorCalKid has some excellent photos and a great recipe with his comments at this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?p=6932#6932
Nick`s comments are right on the mark. Fat doesn`t cure. And it doesn`t make much sense to cure the meat and then grind it. Comminuted, it will pick up nitrite in no time at all and once nitric oxide enters the cells, it is almost instantaneously "cured". There is no real need to store it overnight in the fridge. Believe me, commercial processors don`t do it. There`s just no point in it unless you wish to have time for certain spices to meld or fortify. As a matter of fact, the overnight rest isn`t really recommended by top sausage makers. Rytek Kutas really objected to the practice unless it was deemed necessary. As I write this, I am wiping my hands from just stuffing 10 pounds of sausage that came directly from my grinder, then my mixer. Shucks, the "overnight nap" can take place inside the casings just as well as it can in a lug. Oh, they`ll be refrigerated overnight all right, but that is because I`m going to bed. :roll: First thing in the morning, they`ll go into a pre-heated smoke house.
Mark, why not read through my 32 tips for beginners? It may solve some problems for you. Just click on this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5036
Good luck pal, and please let us know how your project turns out. Perhaps a few photos? In any case we`re behind you and available if you need some help. :wink:

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by atcNick » Sat Feb 09, 2013 05:35

Chuckwagon wrote:. And it doesn`t make much sense to cure the meat and then grind it.

Some of the recipe's in Marianski books call for curing cubed meat for 2-3 days, then grinding. I always wondered why do it that way.
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Post by redzed » Sat Feb 09, 2013 06:50

All traditional Polish recipes call for curing the meat for two or three days. This goes back to the days when saltpeter was used and it took longer to penetrate the meat. Today they use peklosol in Poland which contains nitrite, but the traditional recipes still specify that the meat be cured for at least 48 hours. Marianski's recipes are, for the most part, traditional, so that is the rationale. Nearly all the recipes posted by members on the Polish WD site specify this method. My father who learned to make sausages in Poland and continues to make large quantities to this day at the age of 88, still religiously follows this practice. CW is correct about the speed of nitrite in ground meat, so you really don't need to go through that step to cure it. When I make Polish sausages I usually do cure the cubed meat, especially if I manage my time properly. The curing does change the consistency of the meat and all liquids are absorbed back into the meat. Grinding the meat also seems easier. But I also make sausage where I grind, add cure, stuff and smoke the next day and can't tell whether the flavour was compromised in any way.

So in the end, it's really a matter of personal choice. I would experiment, take notes and see whether in fact there are differences in flavour and texture between the two methods.
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Post by Cabonaia » Sat Feb 09, 2013 08:23

I used to cure the meat for kabanosy for a night or more in the fridge, then season and stuff it. Now I add cure and seasoning the same day, and leave the stuffed sausage in the fridge uncovered for a day or two before smoking it. I can't tell any difference between the two methods, so I go with the easier one. What Chuckwagon says make sense to me - you can let the meat cure in or out of casing, same thing.

Now letting it age for a few days after smoking really does make a difference. The texture and the taste improve. But it is very hard to wait!
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Post by atcNick » Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:16

Ahhh, I see! That makes sense now. Thanks





redzed wrote:All traditional Polish recipes call for curing the meat for two or three days. This goes back to the days when saltpeter was used and it took longer to penetrate the meat. Today they use peklosol in Poland which contains nitrite, but the traditional recipes still specify that the meat be cured for at least 48 hours. Marianski's recipes are, for the most part, traditional, so that is the rationale. Nearly all the recipes posted by members on the Polish WD site specify this method. My father who learned to make sausages in Poland and continues to make large quantities to this day at the age of 88, still religiously follows this practice. CW is correct about the speed of nitrite in ground meat, so you really don't need to go through that step to cure it. When I make Polish sausages I usually do cure the cubed meat, especially if I manage my time properly. The curing does change the consistency of the meat and all liquids are absorbed back into the meat. Grinding the meat also seems easier. But I also make sausage where I grind, add cure, stuff and smoke the next day and can't tell whether the flavour was compromised in any way.

So in the end, it's really a matter of personal choice. I would experiment, take notes and see whether in fact there are differences in flavour and texture between the two methods.


Now letting it age for a few days after smoking really does make a difference. The texture and the taste improve. But it is very hard to wait!
I couldn't agree more! Especially for kabanosy. When you let regular sausage rest in the fridge do you leave it uncovered to dry a little or wrap it up? On kabanosy I leave them uncovered to dry a little but I've never let regular kielbasa age.
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Post by snagman » Sun Feb 10, 2013 01:36

I do the cube/three day rest in the fridge because grinding chunks of meat which has been in contact with the flavourings distributes the flavours better and quicker ( less time out of fridge ) than mixing flavours into ground meats. The cure is not something I am concerned about in this method, it will do its own thing, including continuing during smoking.
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Post by markjass » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:22

I was going to show pictures of my ham, smoked chicken and mortadella, but the ham and chicken got scoffed before I had a chance to take a picture. Lucky I had a little mortadella hid in the fridge.

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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:25

Mark, that stuff looks downright tasty! Very nicely done pal. The texture and color look great. Are you satisfied with the taste? Keep up the good work pal.

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Post by markjass » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:38

I love the taste and texture. As I have never seen or tasted a first class Italian mortadella so I have nothing to compare my sausage with. In fact I do not care if my sausage is anything like a mortadella. It tastes scummy and the family and my work mates say to me give up the nursing and make us sausages. If only life was that simple. One thing I do know is that without the help of you guys and the comments of my taste testers I would be lost.

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Post by Cabonaia » Fri Feb 15, 2013 15:29

Beautiful mortadella Mark! This has become a favorite in my house. Trust me, your mort tastes better than the storebought stuff by a mile or two. And I agree, it doesn't matter anyway.

Did you use NorCalKid's recipe? That's my go-to for mortadella.

Cheers,
Jeff
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