funk taste

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funk taste

Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sat May 28, 2016 01:16

Of course, I have some friends that are particular to the funk smell of a good soppressata. Is this the culture or Mold giving this smell and cheesy flavor? Of course, I always hear that the store bought does not have that characteristic. Any suggestions what it is and whether it can be eliminated? Especially on a real simple dried italian sausage where this flavor or smell is not necessarily desirable? Thanks Lou
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Post by Bob K » Sat May 28, 2016 12:24

Lou -
There was a recent discussion on that here: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15 starting on page 2
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sat May 28, 2016 17:26

So, is the outcome the mold or the culture? I read the whole thing.
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Post by Bob K » Sat May 28, 2016 17:47

Jason would have to answer that, although I can say that his pepperoni did not taste "funky" to us here.
He can comment on stuff made with T-SPX
To be honest I don't know what people mean by a funk taste or smell, I just find a more complex flavor compared to the acidic store bought stuff.
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sat May 28, 2016 18:06

The funk smell that I am talking about is a cheesy smell, which doesn't bother me. The flavor is excellent, but some people can't get past the smell. Some describe it as a dirty sock smell, but it's a cheesy smell. I don't think it's the mold. I think it's the culture. being I have always used the 007 other than the first batch I made with t-spx, but that was the batch I tossed due to the mistake in salt quantity. Every Umai cure I have seen still looks mushy in the middle. Even the one video they have on their website. A lot of deli's in the area sells their own dried italian sausage. I know for a fact they dry them in commercial walk in refrigerators. No mold, it comes out real firm and I'm not convinced they are using a culture. Chances are they aren't even using a nitrate.
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Post by redzed » Sat May 28, 2016 23:39

According to compilations of scientific analyses edited by Toldra, that cheesy, funky flavour is the result of fermentation and then enzymatic activity, or proteolysis induced by mould and micrococci bacteria. In Italy these occur naturally and we can get close to it using starter cultures. IF you have been using B-LC-007, the micrococci that we we are talking about are the Staphylococcus carnosus and Staphylococcus xylosus. These bacteria are more active in warmer temps and sometimes become overactive and we get that ammonia smell. To reduce their activity you lower the temp in your chamber.

So to answer your question, as to how to achieve a less funky tasting product, you can dry in a colder environment, that is less than 10C, (Brican matures his products at 4C). You will still need humidity which will result in some mould development, but not at the same level as at 12-15C. To eliminate mould altogether, spray them with potassium sorbate or cold smoke. You can probably safely make a smaller diameter sausage using <40mm hog casings without starter cultures or fermenting at higher temps. See Marianski's discussion about this in the yellow book.
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Post by BriCan » Sun May 29, 2016 00:25

redzed wrote: bacteria are more active in warmer temps and sometimes become overactive and we get that ammonia smell. To reduce their activity you lower the temp in your chamber.

So to answer your question, as to how to achieve a less funky tasting product, you can dry in a colder environment, that is less than 10C, (Brican matures his products at 4C). You will still need humidity which will result in some mould development, but not at the same level as at 12-15C. To eliminate mould altogether, spray them with potassium sorbate or cold smoke. You can probably safely make a smaller diameter sausage using <40mm hog casings without starter cultures or fermenting at higher temps. See Marianski's discussion about this in the yellow book.
As you say I cure/dry 99.9% of my things at 4C and the humidity is between 75% to 80% ... as for mould, all mine is naturally occurring and happens all the time ... due to the length of time drying (upwards of a year) the mould development is slow which is to be expected and yes it ends up as much as at 12C to 15C -- my casings are 64mm ... no starter culture ... fermented at 22C with humidity of 90% for a minimum of 3 days but up to 7 days
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sun May 29, 2016 14:53

redzed wrote:
So to answer your question, as to how to achieve a less funky tasting product, you can dry in a colder environment, that is less than 10C, (Brican matures his products at 4C). You will still need humidity which will result in some mould development, but not at the same level as at 12-15C. To eliminate mould altogether, spray them with potassium sorbate or cold smoke. You can probably safely make a smaller diameter sausage using <40mm hog casings without starter cultures or fermenting at higher temps. See Marianski's discussion about this in the yellow book.
If you decide not to use a culture, do you still ferment? If so, at what temp? If you still ferment, do you still monitor the PH? Or do you take the product straight into a lower temp curing chamber?
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Post by redzed » Sun May 29, 2016 15:32

Rather than paraphrasing, read this discussion to find the answer to your question.
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... raditional
I have made a few saucisson sec without cultures and was quite pleased with the results. However, I am a believer in the use of starter cultures and I am convinced that the end product is not only safer but superior in flavour than if we make it in the "traditional" way in this part of the world.
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Sun May 29, 2016 15:54

OK, so let's assume we stick with cultures. Are there recommended cultures that are just as safe and maybe not as "tasty"?
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Post by redzed » Sun May 29, 2016 19:45

LOUSANTELLO wrote:OK, so let's assume we stick with cultures. Are there recommended cultures that are just as safe and maybe not as "tasty"?
That is probably the strangest question anyone has ever asked here. :shock: :grin:

But if you want to produce a simple dried sausage then do what I suggested and don't ferment. Cube the meat, add the salt and cure, keep in fridge for three days, grind, stuff into a 40mm or smaller casing and transfer to the curing chamber. If you still want to use a culture, give it a fast ferment, take the pH to 4.8 and then dry. The slow ferment is what gives the sausage it's complex flavour and the micrococci bacteria don't do well in a high acid environment.
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Re: funk taste

Post by Butterbean » Sun May 29, 2016 20:14

LOUSANTELLO wrote:Of course, I have some friends that are particular to the funk smell of a good soppressata. Is this the culture or Mold giving this smell and cheesy flavor? Of course, I always hear that the store bought does not have that characteristic. Any suggestions what it is and whether it can be eliminated? Especially on a real simple dried italian sausage where this flavor or smell is not necessarily desirable? Thanks Lou
I don't know why you would want to try and make something like the mass producers' put on the shelves but I understand where you are coming from. Some people's benchmark for good food is set really low and many don't care what it tastes like as long as it tastes like what they buy at the supermarket and it will make a turd. A year or so ago I caught some severe criticism with my mortadella. As I was told, "everyone knows bologna ain't supposed to have nuts in it".

Personally, I love it when the salami smells of cheese and when it does I break out my knife and start eating regardless of what the shrink is. IMO its a treat few will ever enjoy.

But if you want to make what suits "their" tastes just turn the heat up in the fermentation chamber and add plenty of dextrose and ferment and dry as fast as possible and you will surely make them happy.
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Thu Jun 02, 2016 14:03

Ok, so I have contradicting answers, so I am still trying to understand. It sounds like if you ferment, you should use a culture,,,,but Redzed also says if I don't ferment, to cube it, add cure and keep in refrigerator for 3 days, grind it, season it and stuff it, then transfer to curing chamber. Excuse my ignorance,,do I or don't I need the culture? That's the big question. What do I gain? What are the risks involved if any? Is it the cure or the culture that reduces risks?
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Post by Bob K » Thu Jun 02, 2016 14:48

Lou-
I think your best and safest route would be to get some LHP, which is a fast culture with no flavor forming bacteria. And do everything else just like you are now for fermented, dried sausage. Just ferment at a higher temp like 80-90° F until you reach your target Ph. If you wnt more of a sour note add more sugar
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Post by LOUSANTELLO » Thu Jun 02, 2016 14:54

Great, thanks
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