lactic acid starter cultures that are equivalent to Fermento

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lactic acid starter cultures that are equivalent to Fermento

Post by Rick » Sat Sep 22, 2012 00:43

I was looking over the Rytek Trail Bologna recipe which calls for some Fermento. A Google search turned up some comments about Fermento imparting an off taste to the sausage and a lactic acid starter culture might be a better way to go. In looking over the Bactoferm cultures offered by Butcher Packer, its a little confusing as to which one might be the equivalent to Fermento for the Trail Bologna recipe. If one of you lactic acid experts could offer some assistance here, I'd greatly appreciate it. Also, whatever you recommend, how much would be used for a 10# recipe?

Thank you,Rick
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Post by crustyo44 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 20:59

Hi Rick,
For what it's worth. I haver been reading that Fermento and Butter Milk Powder are interchangeable with no noticeable difference in taste. I have 1 kg in the deepfreeze of the latter.
I am interested in what the brains on this forum can advise all of us as I am keen to use it, even as an experiment and increase my sausagemaking experience.
Good Luck,
Jan.
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Post by ssorllih » Sat Sep 22, 2012 21:51

The sausage maker lists fermento and advises a half ounce per pound and not to exceed one ounce per pound. Buttermilk powder probably has a little more substance to it.
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Post by Rick » Sat Sep 22, 2012 22:30

So it sounds as though a 10# batch of meat takes from 5 oz. to 10 oz. and Fermento and Buttermilk powder are interchangeable.
I'd still like to hear from someone who has used the cultures to see if it results in a better tang in the final product. As for the amount used, I believe it's somewhere around 1/4 teaspoon for 10# of meat.
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Post by IdaKraut » Sat Sep 22, 2012 23:03

I have refrained from posting because I don't think Fermento is what it's cracked up to be whereas some others (Chuckwagon comes to mind) will tell you they use and love it. When I have used it, I could not taste any tang at all. In my opinion there is no substitute for using a real lactic acid starter culture, such as T-SPX (mildly acidic notes) or Bactoferm LHP (very sour flavor). Heck, if you simply want some quick and cheap tang, you could always use ECA (encapsulated citric acid) which is close to LAB cultures in tang but has a different taste (to me, it's like comparing the taste of sugar to artificial sweetener).
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Post by ssorllih » Sat Sep 22, 2012 23:26

Rick considering the contrast in amounts used I tend to think that you are thinking about the bacteria cultures that are added and then fremented. They are two entirely different products.
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Post by Baconologist » Sat Sep 22, 2012 23:52

In my humble opinion, Fermento is a horrible product and encapsulated citric acid is just as bad! You can't cut corners with such products if you want the best sausage.

The Bactoferm products are true starter cultures and require specific conditions and procedures for proper fermentation.

Take a look at Bactoferm F-LC (at 95-115°F during fermentation) and LHP, both produce a pronounced tart flavor.

It's best to fully educate yourself before starting.

Here's a good place to start...

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6028
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by Rick » Sat Sep 22, 2012 23:58

IdaKraut and ssorllih, yes I am considering using the culture bacteria instead of the Fermento. The reason being, whatever tang you get with using Fermento is going to be what you get. Using the cultures, of which Butcher Packer offers 6 of, would seem to allow one to vary the strength of tang in a finished product by altering the choice of culture used. In searching information on each, I believe the F-RAM-52 is the middle of the road tang. Then again, I believe the LHP is going to be the strongest tang. I believe these work over a two day period with optimum bacteria growth occurring at 85 F. I'm not sure of how long to hang the sausage in the smoke house. The way I see it, a 10# batch of bologna stuffed in a 100 mm casing and put in the smoke house at 135 with increasing intervals of temperature should take the better part of a day to get it up to a finished temp of 155 F. So do I want to finish the bologna at a lower temp and over two days or just follow the recipe and step it up in increments and get it finished in say 15-20 hours?
I'm really hoping someone who works a lot with the culture chimes in here. Perhaps its only for the dry cure sausages and not for bologna.
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Post by ssorllih » Sun Sep 23, 2012 00:07

Rick , I believe that you are over simplifing this process. Several of our members have gone to great efforts to build very carefully controlled fermentation chambers. These control the temperature, humidity and the rate of air circulation. I will try to find appropriate threads that will help you to follow the process from start to finish. I will be back in a little while.
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Post by Rick » Sun Sep 23, 2012 00:23

ssorllih, I was just looking for a different alternative (than Fermento) to imparting a tang into some Trail Bologna, and I thought some of the bacterial cultures would do that for me. I'm not interested in making Salami or building a carefully controlled fermentation chamber to start doing dry cured sausages in. I was hoping someone who had experience with the cultures would tell me that they weren't so sausage specific and would meet my needs for the bologna. No problem though, not having Trail Bologna isn't the end of the world for me.
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Post by IdaKraut » Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:03

I wish I had more time to discuss this subject, but let me suggest you 1st decide how sour (tangy) you want the bologna to be. Then go to: http://www.sausagemaker.com/curesandcultures.aspx and read the PDF files for the various starter cultures. Stay away from T-SPX (my favorite) because it is strictly for long, slow dry cured products and since you wish to do a fast fermented and cooked sausage I would suggest going with F-LC and following the directions as stated here: http://www.sausagemaker.com/productdocs ... c_info.pdf

If you are using the recipe in Rytek Kutas' book, please note he is only using dextrose at the rate of 0.468% which is not enough if you are substituting a culture for Fermento. I would follow something along the line of a recipe in Marianskis' book Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (a far superior book to what Kutas wrote) as noted on page 406 for Summer Sausage which calls for 1.0% dextrose since dextrose is what the culture feeds on to produce lactic acid. This recipe can also be viewed here: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... er-sausage They recommend fermenting at 86° F and 85-90% humidity for 24 hours before warm smoking at 110° F for 6 hours (note: how long you actually apply smoke is up to you) and then gradually increasing the temp until internal meat temp of 140° F is achieved.
Last edited by IdaKraut on Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Baconologist » Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:05

Rick wrote:I'm not interested in making Salami or building a carefully controlled fermentation chamber to start doing dry cured sausages in. I was hoping someone who had experience with the cultures would tell me that they weren't so sausage specific and would meet my needs for the bologna.
It's not really a big deal to ferment bologna, the fermentation chamber can be as simple as a light bulb and moisture source in your oven.
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by IdaKraut » Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:10

Bob is 100% correct. I use a Coleman cooler with a 25 watt light bulb on a dimmer switch as my fermentation chamber. I monitor the temp and humidity of course but find if I keep the lid closed, the humidity is almost perfect for the 24 to 72 hours fermentation time, depending on what culture I am using, etc.
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Post by ssorllih » Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:11

This is the information and detail that you need to make fermented sausage. read it and study it until you gain a complete understanding of the process. http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-ty ... ed-sausage
Last edited by ssorllih on Fri Sep 28, 2012 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rick » Sun Sep 23, 2012 01:34

Okay IdaKraut, now I'm getting somewhere. I'll look into the faster F-LC culture, bumping the dextrose up to 1%, and maintaining a lower temperature for a longer period before raising it.
Oh, and I am partial to sour, no problem there! Many thanks for the simplification on using the culture for tang when doing bologna.
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