Using Cultures in Curing Whole Muscle Cuts

User avatar
Bob K
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 15:16
Location: Northwest Ct

Using Cultures in Curing Whole Muscle Cuts

Post by Bob K » Sun Oct 27, 2013 14:26

Has anyone used or even know if they are available in the US (in small quantities) any of the whole muscle cultures manufactured by CHR Hansen?

They sound interesting to try to enhance the flavor of commercially raised pork.

Here is some info from the CHR Hansen Product Info sheet:

C-P-77 Bactoferm®



C-P-77
is a single strain meat culture for enhancing color and flavor formation in cured meat
products. The culture has a high salt tolerance and secures the formation of pleasant
curing flavor and stable color. Additionally, the culture retards rancidity formation.

Usage
C-P-77 is recommended in the production of cured meat products which are
produced from raw materials with a normal pH.

Directions for use
The culture should be added directly to the curing salt or to the brine. Dissolution
prior to use is not recommendable. During acclimatization the recommended
temperature is 6°C (43°F) as a minimum. When the salt penetration is finalized the
temperature should be maximum 30°C (86°F).
Last edited by Bob K on Sat Oct 31, 2015 02:35, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Post by redzed » Sun Oct 27, 2013 17:23

Thanks for the info Bob. Looks like it might be worth trying, especially after Igor's determined claims about enhancing flavours of whole muscle meats with the use of starter cultures. C-P-77 is packaged in small 25g. packets for sale in Europe and is on the government list of accepted starter cultures in Canada. So it's probably a matter of finding a retailer willing to offer this stuff. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to contact CHR Hansen and enquire whether anyone sells it in the US.

On the other hand, the culture contains only Staphylococcus carnosus, so the same effect might be obtained with the use of another packaged product with a high content of that bacteria.
Igor Duńczyk
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 23:41
Location: Croatia

Post by Igor Duńczyk » Mon Oct 28, 2013 22:52

Hi Bob!
I´m absoultely on par with Red. Staphylococcus carnosus is a real John Doe among starter strains, and even if you may find many different variations within the carnosus group the basic funcionality is be (more or less) identical.

The original Staphylococcus carnosus in the C-P-77 was the good old Rudolf Müller workhorse designated " Pökelferment 77" M 17 DSM-No.1953.
I had the pleasure to visit the great knowleged guys down in Pohlheim who were responisble for the cultures of Rüdolf Müller - a top notch German culture producer that at some time was acquired by Chr.Hansen (- a good corporate investment I´d say!).

Almost all culture producers and distributors offer a Staphylococcus carnosus.
However if you wans a more broadly functional "curing culture" try the combination of Staphylococcus carnosus and Staphylococcus xylosus.
The xylosus is very active at the outset of the fermentation process (Staphylococcus xylosus is used in the T-SPX) but as water activity starts dropping and salt concentration increases the more salt-tolerant Staphylococcus carnosus will be able to keep up activity a little longer than the xylosus.

I think the Chr.Hansen designation of this combination is C-P-77-S. But, as I don´t want to conceal that I´m a bit embedded with the italian culture producer SACCO, whose present production manager is Mrs. Lone Andersen - my great collegue in the nineties who for many years was R&D responsible for Chr.Hansen´s meat starter cultures and responsible for standardisation of all Rudolf Müller and CH starter cultures, I´ll not hesitate to advise you to contact SACCO´s representative in the US and ask for Lyocarni WBX-43 which is our designation for the carnosus+xylosus combination.
In the event that you choose another culture supplier just make sure that the total cell count is at least is up around the 5x10in11 CFU of our Lyocarni-stuff.
Just think of it this way: If the total cell count should be 50% lower than the abovementioned, then you ought only to pay half the price as compared to SACCO´s - right? :wink:
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
alezy
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 05:41
Location: newyok

Post by alezy » Tue Jan 07, 2014 05:47

Obviously the fish must thaw before the water is active in moving the salt in the brine but it should not take very much time for the fish to thaw when it is in the brine. You can check with your hand to feel when it is soft. The amount of water used to coat the frozen fish is small and of little consequence.
ALEZY
Igor Duńczyk
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 23:41
Location: Croatia

Post by Igor Duńczyk » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:14

Grüzli´Alezy

I think your topic calls for a new tread, unless you need a starter culture for fish (which I can recommend if you want to stay free of Listeria :grin: )
But I guess that was not your intend ?
Wishing you a Good Day!
Igor The Dane
ericrice
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 17:35
Location: Philadelphia

Post by ericrice » Mon Jan 20, 2014 22:08

I'm really intrigued as this is new to me. If anyone comes across a seller in the States please let us know. If I don't hear otherwise I will reach out to CHR Hansen directly in the next few days as they have always been very responsive at getting back to folks, even home hobbyists.
Occupation?? Part time Butcher, Chef, Microbiologist, Scientist and Meteorologist – does what pays the bills really matter?

Eric
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Using cultures in dry curing whole muscle cuts

Post by redzed » Thu Oct 29, 2015 17:58

Earlier this year I purchased a packet of Texel DCM-1 and finally got around to working with it. It is a bacteria compound specifically designed for solid muscle meats such as lonza, breasola, coppa, pancetta, speck, and ham. When we use starter cultures in making salami, we use it primarily to acidify the meat by lowering the pH and making the product safer. In applying cultures to whole muscle cuts, the main purpose is to enhance colour formation, colour stability, and aroma formation.

DCM-1 does not contain any fermentative bacteria but rather two strains of cocci bacteria: Staphylococcus carnosus and Staphylococcus vitulinus. According to the product spec sheet, the properties are:
High nitrate reductase activity at dried cured meat processing temperature;
Rapid development and good colour stability;
Reduction of residual nitrate;
Good catalase activity - peroxide neutralization
Good proteolytic and lypolytic activities - aroma producing action.

It all sounds reasonable and practical especially if we use Cure #2 which contains nitrate. The bacteria work on the surface of the meat, converting nitrate to nitrite. The nitrite is then absorbed into the meat. The staphylococci are highly salt resistant and the culture is applied by mixing it in with the curing and flavouring ingredients and rubbing into the meat.
I prepared a breasola, fiocco and a small piece of ham with the culture. In order to experiment, I also prepared two coppa, one with DCM-1 and one without, to see if there will be a discernible difference.
Now it's wait and see.

Image
After three weeks of equilibrium curing

Image
Cased in pasted hog casings and ready for the chamber
User avatar
Bob K
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 15:16
Location: Northwest Ct

Post by Bob K » Fri Oct 30, 2015 16:19

That should be interesting Chris. We had a short discussion on them here: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6817 but I never found them in the US.

*The two threads have now been combined to provide a better flow of information.
Last edited by Bob K on Sat Oct 31, 2015 02:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Post by redzed » Fri Oct 30, 2015 17:57

Yes I remember that discussion and as far as I know, the Chr. Hansen product C-P-77 Bactoferm is not available in North America. You can buy the Danisco product Texel DCM-1 from the Craft Butchers' Pantry http://www.butcherspantry.com/ and from the master himself, Fracois Vecchio http://www.francoisvecchio.com/starter- ... -salumi-2/ Francois also has the DCM-1 spec sheet on his site.

As I have inferred in previous posts, Chr. Hansen cultures are not the only players here. :lol: And note that DCM-1 contains Staphylococcus carnosus and Staphylococcus vitulinus, while C-P-77 Bactoferm contains only S. carnosus.
harleykids
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 03:03
Location: Olathe, KS

Post by harleykids » Wed Jan 20, 2016 05:42

RedZed,

I have a package of Texel DCM-1 from Craft Butcher Pantry, but I forgot to use it on my coppa (already hung..damn!) and my bresaola (will be out of a 14 day cure this Friday)

Question...since my bresaola still has 3 days left to finish curing, do you think I can mix up the Texel and add it to my bresoala for the last 3 days of curing, then hang to dry at my normal 13C@82%RH?

Or do you think the Texel needed all 14 days of curing time at 33F in my fridge? (I am curing in a vacpak)

And how did you prepare the Texel DCM-1 for use?

Thx!
Jason
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Post by redzed » Wed Jan 20, 2016 06:14

If you are doing equilibrium curing then you could dilute an amount of the culture in 50ml of water and apply to the meats, reseal and give them another 10 days of curing, massaging daily. When you equilibrium cure you can leave the meat for a month or longer without any problems. But if you will be transferring the coppa and breasola in three days, I don't think that is enough time, so save the culture for the next batch.
harleykids
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 03:03
Location: Olathe, KS

Post by harleykids » Wed Jan 20, 2016 06:33

Thanks RedZed. Coppa is already hung, cured for 9 days. So that one is out of the question.

But the bresoala is still curing, will have been curing in fridge vacpak for 14 days this coming Friday.

The cure content I used for both was 3% sea salt and 0.3% cure #2, per weight of meat.
So total salt content was 3.03%

Coppa cured for 4 days with 1/2 of the cure mixture, then drained liquid and re-cured with remaining 1/2 cure mixture for 5 more days, then rolled in spices and cased in beef bung and hung in chamber @ 13C@82%RH

Bresoala was the same, except cured with 1/2 cure mix for 7 days, drained and re-cure with remaining 1/2 for another 7 days. This last 7 days will be finished this Friday, when I had planned on casing in beef bung and hanging to dry at the same 13C@82%RH.

So I did use equilibrium curing, at 3.03% salt.

So should I just forget the Texel and just case the bresoala this Friday @ 14 days?

Or do you think the Bresoala would definitely benefit from the addition of the Texel, and I should use it on the bresoala and reseal and cure for another 10 days (24 days total curing), then case and hang to dry as normal?

Looking for your advice here if possible, based on my equilibrium cure at 3.03%

Thx!
Jason
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Post by redzed » Wed Jan 20, 2016 06:54

I guess it's up to you, leaving it for another 10 days won't hurt. The difference in taste will probably be minimal. Best would have been to do one with culture and one without, then you would know for sure. And you have 3.3% salt there (not 3.03%), so I would brush off any excess salt before applying the culture for the extra 10 days or so.

My two test coppas are vacced and in the fridge. I kinda forgot about them and left them in the chamber too long. :shock:
harleykids
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 03:03
Location: Olathe, KS

Post by harleykids » Wed Jan 20, 2016 07:05

Thanks, I think I will follow your advice and just do the 14 days and then case this Friday.

I will save the Texel for my next coppa and bresoala and maybe an orange lonzino like yours.
Then I will have test subjects to compare.

Is my 3.3% salt pretty standard, or too much/too little in your coppa and bresoala taste experience?

Thx!
Jason
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3179
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Post by redzed » Wed Jan 20, 2016 07:28

harleykids wrote:Is my 3.3% salt pretty standard, or too much/too little in your coppa and bresoala taste experience?
Again it's what you like, and not all of the salt migrates into the meat. I now use 2.5% salt and .3% #2. 3.3% is what most of Marianski's recipes call for, but I found that just a bit too salty. So if your breasola drops 35% of wight the remaining meat will have 4.45% salt.
Post Reply